Freethought & Rationalism Archive

inquisitive01 · 08-29-2004, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

1 Peter 3
17It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

I can't find anything there which says that Jesus was God.

'He was put to death in the body' is an interesting phrase. How else are people put to death?

If God the Son really was God the Son , and there is but the one God, how can God forsake God the Son?

Jesus Christ is the Son of God; God is the Father of Jesus Christ. That's the reason why you can't find anything there that says Jesus was God (Jesus is His Son). Why would you think they are the same?

Steven Carr · 08-29-2004, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

Jesus Christ is the Son of God; God is the Father of Jesus Christ. That's the reason why you can't find anything there that says Jesus was God (Jesus is His Son). Why would you think they are the same?

Just that Christianity is a monotheistic religion, and I am told by Christians that Jesus claimed He Himself was God.

Steven Carr · 08-29-2004, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

1 Peter 3
He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

'He was put to death in the body' is an interesting phrase. How else are people put to death?

I still find it interesting that Jesus was put to death 'in the body'. What does this mean? That his spirit lived on, although his body was dead?

inquisitive01 · 08-29-2004, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

I still find it interesting that Jesus was put to death 'in the body'. What does this mean? That his spirit lived on, although his body was dead?

Jesus, the Son of God, was "in the body" as "in a man's body" (Luke 2:11-15; Hebrews 2:9).

offa · 08-29-2004, 03:51 PM

a little hint, Jesus was crucified and did survive. He was not the same person after the crucifixion. This is due to trauma, and, some hush money was paid to Pilate, so he had to lay low for a while.

When you are stabbed and blood flows then you are not dead. If he was dead he would not have said "Oh father, why have you forsaken me?" You know, dead men don't talk?

His father, Jonathan Annas could have paid a bribe then and there, But Jonathan chose to let Jesus suffer. A bribe was paid later.

offa

inquisitive01 · 08-29-2004, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by offa

a little hint, Jesus was crucified and did survive. He was not the same person after the crucifixion. This is due to trauma, and, some hush money was paid to Pilate, so he had to lay low for a while.

When you are stabbed and blood flows then you are not dead. If he was dead he would not have said "Oh father, why have you forsaken me?" You know, dead men don't talk?

His father, Jonathan Annas could have paid a bribe then and there, But Jonathan chose to let Jesus suffer. A bribe was paid later.

offa

I'd love to see that which goes beyond your hint. Spoken like a true atheist, though.

Are you referring to Annas, the father-in-law of Caiaphas?

inquisitive01 · 08-29-2004, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

I'd love to see that which goes beyond your hint. Spoken like a true atheist, though.

Are you referring to Annas, the father-in-law of Caiaphas?

Are you still with us, Offa? Is there another Annas?

budgie · 08-30-2004, 08:50 AM

This thread has been (mostly) very entertaining and enlightening.

However, the one idea that has gotten under my skin is the issue of slavery.

1. Are there passages in the bible that condemn slavery?

-jim

inquisitive01 · 08-30-2004, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by budgie

This thread has been (mostly) very entertaining and enlightening.

However, the one idea that has gotten under my skin is the issue of slavery.

1. Are there passages in the bible that condemn slavery?

-jim

There's more information on this on the following page:

http://www.brfwitness.org/Articles/2003v38n1.htm

Angrillori · 08-30-2004, 05:27 PM

Just a couple of highlights:

#1) Budgie, to answer your question, NO. The bible very specifically does not ever condemn slavery as an institution. It does make sure that Israelite slaves are able to be freed, and not mistreated, and the article highlighted by Inq. certainly doesn't ever draw attention to the double standard there, but it does not discourage slavery of other peoples. In fact it is very explicit in its granting of permission to have slaves.
"Can we have slaves?" Ask the Israelites.
"Yes." says God, and adds: "And as long as they are not Israelites, you may beat them, hold them for their entire lives, commit their children to servitude, and will them to be inherited by future generations of your family."

#2) Let's look at some highlights of the linked article:

Quote:

It is important that we do not confuse God's use of an institution (or of evil) with His approval of it.

Let's see if God approves of slavery:
Israelites: "Hey god, may we take slaves?"
God:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leviticus 25:44

Leviticus 25:44
" 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.

But then again, what about:

Quote:

Originally Posted by the article

Year after year, Passover reminds the world that God does not approve of slavery.

--for Israelites! They get a slightly better knock than their neighbors:

Quote:

Originally Posted by God, in Lev 25:42

Leviticus 25:42
Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves.

but:

Quote:

Originally Posted by God, in Lev 25:46

Leviticus 25:46
You can will them [slaves taken from other lands] to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,

But, once again, not his chosen people, see:

Quote:

but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Yeah, it wasn't so much slavery that he was against, but, well, slavery of Israelites.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the article

During the sojourn in the Sinai Wilderness the Lord called on the Hebrews to remember their own bondage in Egypt so that they would deal fairly with their own brothers who were slaves, placing a limit of six years on their servitude (Deuteronomy 15:12-15).

But what was that about slaves they bought from other countries? Did they get off after six years? No, let's repeat:

Quote:

Originally Posted by God, Lev 25:46

Leviticus 25:46
You can will them [slaves taken from other lands] to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly

Now, the article points out that

Quote:

Originally Posted by the article

Lord Jesus Christ began His public ministry by reading from the same prophet: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord" (Luke 4:18-19).

And by setting at liberty those who are oppressed, Jesus must have meant something different than we see it now, since by the close of the NT, we have exhortations not to give up slaves, but just make sure you treat them well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God in Eph. 6:9

Ephesians 6:9
And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

Hmm, not: "Masters, give up your slaves. Because I am God and dissapprove of it."

In fact, in the NT we specifically have 5 instances of direction by god to slaves, ordering them to grin and bear it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God

1 Peter 2:18
Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Titus 2:9
Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them,

1 Timothy 6:1
All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered.

Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.

Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Doesn't sound like Jesus is setting them too free, now does it.

Now, for an interesting lesson, can anyone spot the Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy in this:

Quote:

The abuses of slavery have disappeared wherever the Word of God has been widely and faithfully taught. Christianity never had as its immediate goal an attempt to change society, but to change people. And to the degree that people change, to that extent, society and its structures change. And so wherever the true Christian message has made deep inroads, slavery has been eliminated.

That said, the article very specifically points out that the bible no-where condemns slavery. It tries to offer up a position that the bible implicitly takes an anti-slavery stand, and that while slavery is allowed, it is not approved of.

For that, I refer back to the places where god explicitly grants permission for Israelites to take slaves, and then keep them for life.

If my son wants a cookie, and I tell him: "Yes, you may take a cookie, but not a chocolate chip one," then it can be said that I approve of my son having a cookie.

When the Israelites asked:
"God, may we take slaves?" and God said: "Yes, you may take slaves, but not other Israelites," then it can be said that he approves.

The fact that the bulk of humanity today has found a moral compass far superior to God's has nothing at all to do with the spread of Christianity, but perhaps something good about the human spirit.

08-30-2004, 08:50 AM	#88
budgie Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: I Owe the World an Apology Posts: 890	Slavery: God's will or not? This thread has been (mostly) very entertaining and enlightening. However, the one idea that has gotten under my skin is the issue of slavery. 1. Are there passages in the bible that condemn slavery? -jim

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08-29-2004, 03:51 PM	#85
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	a little hint, Jesus was crucified and did survive. He was not the same person after the crucifixion. This is due to trauma, and, some hush money was paid to Pilate, so he had to lay low for a while. When you are stabbed and blood flows then you are not dead. If he was dead he would not have said "Oh father, why have you forsaken me?" You know, dead men don't talk? His father, Jonathan Annas could have paid a bribe then and there, But Jonathan chose to let Jesus suffer. A bribe was paid later. offa

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