Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 03-04-2009, 10:28 AM

There have been several groups who the Jews would have wished to have a Messiah to free them from, the Egyptians interestingly being entirely fabricated.

It is unclear that the Persians are such a group, despite the propaganda of rivers of Babylon.

The Greeks they definitely had issues with. The Romans also for a long period.

But looking at their history, was there really anything that special about the Romans that caused this need for a super messiah, or is it another example of groups with extremist beliefs getting bashed by the local empire and making out they are more important than they are?

One of the emperors lost three legions in Germany, there were significant losses north of Hadrian's wall. Why no world religions from those areas?

bacht · 03-04-2009, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

There have been several groups who the Jews would have wished to have a Messiah to free them from, the Egyptians interestingly being entirely fabricated.

It is unclear that the Persians are such a group, despite the propaganda of rivers of Babylon.

The Greeks they definitely had issues with. The Romans also for a long period.

But looking at their history, was there really anything that special about the Romans that caused this need for a super messiah, or is it another example of groups with extremist beliefs getting bashed by the local empire and making out they are more important than they are?

One of the emperors lost three legions in Germany, there were significant losses north of Hadrian's wall. Why no world religions from those areas?

The Greeks and Romans were "westerners", though in Jewish eyes they were equally pagan. The Hellenistic culture was the main issue afaik, starting with the Maccabean revolt. Maybe internal Jewish divisions were too advanced by the 1st C to be reconciled anyway (rich vs poor, city vs country, isolationist vs accommodation etc)

semiopen · 03-04-2009, 02:58 PM

The survival and monumental contributions of Judaism to the world is certainly inexplicable.

My view is that the actual secular history is many times more fascinating than the idealized accounts presented in the bible.

judge · 03-04-2009, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

There have been several groups who the Jews would have wished to have a Messiah to free them from, the Egyptians interestingly being entirely fabricated.

It is unclear that the Persians are such a group, despite the propaganda of rivers of Babylon.

The Greeks they definitely had issues with. The Romans also for a long period.

But looking at their history, was there really anything that special about the Romans that caused this need for a super messiah, or is it another example of groups with extremist beliefs getting bashed by the local empire and making out they are more important than they are?

The need for us to put aside our differences (race creed etc) is doubtless more pressing today than at any other point in history.
I think this is the inevitable course for the evolution of mankind (unless we destroy ourselves..which I dont think will happen).
Could it be that, despite the misunderstandings and misuse by religious folk, the time was ripe back then (1st century) for a quite radical message.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

As far as we know mankind had never been united prior to this, but rather divided according to theology race sex etc.....

It was IMHO quite a radical message (and a slow process) to begin to overthrow this kingdom.

mountainman · 03-05-2009, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

One of the emperors lost three legions in Germany, there were significant losses north of Hadrian's wall. Why no world religions from those areas?

The Roman's stamped them out.

Quote:

but I rule over Britons,
little versed in craft and diplomacy,
but born and trained in the game of war, men who,
in the cause of liberty stake down their lives,
the lives of their wives and children,
their lands and property.

Queen of such a race,
I implore thine aid for freedom,
for victory over enemies infamous
for the wantonness of the wrongs they inflict,
for their perversion of justice,

for their contempt of religion,

for their insatiable greed;

Quote:

"But there are no tribes beyond us,
nothing indeed but waves and rocks,
and the yet more terrible Romans,
from whose oppression escape is
vainly sought by obedience and submission.

Robbers of the world,

having by their universal plunder
exhausted the land, they rifle the deep.

If the enemy be rich, they are rapacious;
if he be poor, they lust for dominion;
neither the east nor the west
has been able to satisfy them.

Alone among men they covet
with equal eagerness poverty and riches.
To robbery, slaughter, plunder,
they give the lying name of empire;
they make a solitude and call it peace."

Clivedurdle · 03-05-2009, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

The survival and monumental contributions of Judaism to the world is certainly inexplicable.

My view is that the actual secular history is many times more fascinating than the idealized accounts presented in the bible.

Quote:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Maybe an important clue is here. This probably isn't a new idea - the Pharisees were definitely anti slavery before Paul and Spartacus is 100 years before Paul is assumed to have lived.

It would be interesting to track the evolution of the idea of freedom and equality, and its iterations - is the Pauline one a new development, much like Marx and Engel's synthesis?

Is the linking to a messiah god predictable for the times?

We still have not got the issues of freedom and equality sorted. Was Paul's iteration a significant change to the memepool that does have significant explanatory power - I think ideas change history btw!

03-04-2009, 10:28 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Let my people go! There have been several groups who the Jews would have wished to have a Messiah to free them from, the Egyptians interestingly being entirely fabricated. It is unclear that the Persians are such a group, despite the propaganda of rivers of Babylon. The Greeks they definitely had issues with. The Romans also for a long period. But looking at their history, was there really anything that special about the Romans that caused this need for a super messiah, or is it another example of groups with extremist beliefs getting bashed by the local empire and making out they are more important than they are? One of the emperors lost three legions in Germany, there were significant losses north of Hadrian's wall. Why no world religions from those areas?

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03-04-2009, 02:58 PM	#3
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	The survival and monumental contributions of Judaism to the world is certainly inexplicable. My view is that the actual secular history is many times more fascinating than the idealized accounts presented in the bible.

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