Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Layman · 07-09-2005, 09:22 PM

I'm not an expert on the Secret Gospel of Mark, but one aspect of the story that interested me was how Smith's purported discovery bears some stricking similarities to a Christian adventure/romance novel published a few years prior to his finding the SGM: The Mystery of Mar Saba by J.H. Hunter.

It seems likely that Smith would have at least heard of this book prior to his cataloging of the manuscripts of the Mar Saba Monastery that prompted his reported discovery of the SGM. It was published in 1940 and went through at least nine reprints. It was quite popular throughout the English-speaking world.

Having finally read the book, I posted about the similarities and suspicions they may raise. Even if you don't by into the claims of forgery, you can save yourself the purchase of the book by reading about it. I give away the ending and several plot points.

Yuri Kuchinsky · 07-10-2005, 09:54 AM

Hi, Layman,

So assuming that Smith was a forger, and assuming that he knew about THE MYSTERY OF MAR SABA by J.H. Hunter, why would he still chose this particular monastery to plant his forgery in? Do you think he really wanted to be caught and have his career ruined?

Yours,

Yuri.

NOGO · 07-10-2005, 12:40 PM

If one assumes a forgery then the fit between Smith and the book looks good.
On the other hand if you assume no forgery then the fit is not that good.

If one wants to forge a document than the monastery is a good place to do it from. But the monastery is also a good place to find an authentic document as well. This could be a coincidence.

I believe that the letter is a forgery.
What is really astonishing to me is the kind of logic used by Layman here.
It takes so little for him to doubt.
But when defending Christianity even far stronger logical arguements gives Layman no doubt whatsoever.
This duality has become Layman's trademark. The man is definitely capable of logic but please do not use this kind of logic on Christian beliefs.

So a vague resemblance between two stories is enough to cast doubt.
Let's see now.
Children under two years of age were killed when Jesus was born but Jesus managed to escape.
Can we think of a similar story?

There are more but I have said enough.

Layman · 07-10-2005, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOGO

If one assumes a forgery then the fit between Smith and the book looks good.
On the other hand if you assume no forgery then the fit is not that good.

If one wants to forge a document than the monastery is a good place to do it from. But the monastery is also a good place to find an authentic document as well. This could be a coincidence.

I believe that the letter is a forgery.
What is really astonishing to me is the kind of logic used by Layman here.
It takes so little for him to doubt.
But when defending Christianity even far stronger logical arguements gives Layman no doubt whatsoever.
This duality has become Layman's trademark. The man is definitely capable of logic but please do not use this kind of logic on Christian beliefs.

So a vague resemblance between two stories is enough to cast doubt.
Let's see now.
Children under two years of age were killed when Jesus was born but Jesus managed to escape.
Can we think of a similar story?

There are more but I have said enough.

Actually, it is the similarities (not vague in my opinion) combined with the rest of the indicia of forgery that makes me skeptical.

But leave it to you to distort my comments. If you even bothered to read them.

Amaleq13 · 07-10-2005, 01:21 PM

Let's focus on the topic and avoid tangents about the thinking of individual members.

Thanks in advance,

Amaleq13, BC&H moderator

Sauron · 07-10-2005, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layman

Actually, it is the similarities (not vague in my opinion) combined with the rest of the indicia of forgery that makes me skeptical.

What do you consider to be "the rest of the indicia of forgery"?

Specifically, your assumption that Morton probably read the book seems weak. Stating that "the book was available in the English speaking world" seems quite a stretch, even given the topic. Especially since the book was not a critical volume aimed at academics or institutions of higher learning; it was a dimestore novel.

An article by the son of the author of that dimestore novel:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot/18527

Quote:

Few scholars were as dogmatic as Donald Harmon Akenson of Queen's University, who called Mark's "other" Gospel a blatant forgery: "a forgery, and not one that requires forensic methods and high magnification to detect. Anyone who could not spot it as a forgery from a height of 3,000 feet should not be allowed to make authoritative pronouncements on the authenticity of texts."

But now a Canadian academic, Scott Brown, a lecturer in Christian origins at the University of Toronto, has written a book sure to re-ignite the debate. In Mark's Other Gospel: Rethinking Morton Smith's Controversial Discovery (Wilfred Laurier Press, 2005) Brown offers a thorough, dispassionate, and meticulously researched defence of the likely authenticity of the Clement of Alexander letter. At a minimum, Brown makes a persuasive case that -- scholarly bombast aside -- forgery has not been proven.

And apparently he's heard of you, although he gets your credentials quite wrong. I wonder how that happened:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot/18527

Quote:

Last year, an American theologian named Robert Price, writing in the academic journal Biblical Research, called attention to the similarities between Morton Smith's "discovery" and my father's book.

EssEff · 07-10-2005, 06:33 PM

This could be similar to the situation of a famous supposed past-life person (sorry, can't remember the name) whose earlier life turned out to be from a novel she'd read and long forgotten (or else she was a fraud). Anyone here remember her name?

S.C.Carlson · 07-10-2005, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scifinerdgrl

This could be similar to the situation of a famous supposed past-life person (sorry, can't remember the name) whose earlier life turned out to be from a novel she'd read and long forgotten (or else she was a fraud). Anyone here remember her name?

Bridey Murphy, perhaps? Or maybe, Anna Anderson's claim to be princess Anastasia, the daughter of Czar Nicholas II?

EssEff · 07-10-2005, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Bridey Murphy, perhaps? Or maybe, Anna Anderson's claim to be princess Anastasia, the daughter of Czar Nicholas II?

Bridey Murphy sounds right. She's not the one who supposedly channeled Chopin in her piano playing, right? I don't think it's that one. *sighs* There are so many frauds it's hard to keep track of them.

Toto · 07-10-2005, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron

. . .

And apparently he's heard of you, although he gets your credentials quite wrong. I wonder how that happened:

Quote:

Last year, an American theologian named Robert Price, writing in the academic journal Biblical Research, called attention to the similarities between Morton Smith's "discovery" and my father's book.

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.music.dadl.ot/18527

Careful!!

That's Robert M Price, former fundamentalist now atheist Biblical scholar with one PhD in New Testament and one in Systematic Theology, currently teaching in North Carolina.

He is definitely not Layman.

07-09-2005, 09:22 PM	#1
Layman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 2,635	Is the Secret Gospel of Mark a Modern Forgery Based on a Cheesy Christian Novel? I'm not an expert on the Secret Gospel of Mark, but one aspect of the story that interested me was how Smith's purported discovery bears some stricking similarities to a Christian adventure/romance novel published a few years prior to his finding the SGM: The Mystery of Mar Saba by J.H. Hunter. It seems likely that Smith would have at least heard of this book prior to his cataloging of the manuscripts of the Mar Saba Monastery that prompted his reported discovery of the SGM. It was published in 1940 and went through at least nine reprints. It was quite popular throughout the English-speaking world. Having finally read the book, I posted about the similarities and suspicions they may raise. Even if you don't by into the claims of forgery, you can save yourself the purchase of the book by reading about it. I give away the ending and several plot points.

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07-10-2005, 09:54 AM	#2
Yuri Kuchinsky Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,146	Hi, Layman, So assuming that Smith was a forger, and assuming that he knew about THE MYSTERY OF MAR SABA by J.H. Hunter, why would he still chose this particular monastery to plant his forgery in? Do you think he really wanted to be caught and have his career ruined? Yours, Yuri.

07-10-2005, 12:40 PM	#3
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	If one assumes a forgery then the fit between Smith and the book looks good. On the other hand if you assume no forgery then the fit is not that good. If one wants to forge a document than the monastery is a good place to do it from. But the monastery is also a good place to find an authentic document as well. This could be a coincidence. I believe that the letter is a forgery. What is really astonishing to me is the kind of logic used by Layman here. It takes so little for him to doubt. But when defending Christianity even far stronger logical arguements gives Layman no doubt whatsoever. This duality has become Layman's trademark. The man is definitely capable of logic but please do not use this kind of logic on Christian beliefs. So a vague resemblance between two stories is enough to cast doubt. Let's see now. Children under two years of age were killed when Jesus was born but Jesus managed to escape. Can we think of a similar story? There are more but I have said enough.

07-10-2005, 01:21 PM	#5
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	Let's focus on the topic and avoid tangents about the thinking of individual members. Thanks in advance, Amaleq13, BC&H moderator

07-10-2005, 06:33 PM	#7
EssEff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 5,641	This could be similar to the situation of a famous supposed past-life person (sorry, can't remember the name) whose earlier life turned out to be from a novel she'd read and long forgotten (or else she was a fraud). Anyone here remember her name?

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