Chris Weimer

Read the verses in question then.

I disagree that a blood sacrifice is the only sacrifice that YHWH demanded, further destroying Christian claims that it had to be "a blood sacrifice of a lamb". If anyone actually reads the OT, which was still law during Jesus' ministry, than one would realize that it wasn't necessary after all. Jesus died a fruitless death.

inquisitive01

People STILL think Jesus, the Son of God, is actually God Himself? If one actually reads it, the Bible says otherwise.

wonkothesane

I thought that Jesus "had to die" so that we could be forgiven for Adam's "fall" and the "original sin" that supposedly saddled us with.

And in the Old Test. style, he became the "sacrificial lamb" so that we supposedly didn't have to sacrifice literal lambs anymore...

SwoleMan

All I know is that many Christians believe this because of the trinity doctrine which was dictated 325 AD. But to me, parts of the gospels sure makes more sense if Jesus and God are thought of as separate entities.

However, whoever Jesus was (if he was at all), the "sacrifice an innocent lamb to forgive all sins concept" still look rather bizarre in my eyes.

SwoleMan

I spoke with a devout Christian the other day, and he asserted that children still are born evil

Xrikcus

Who is more evil, the child, or the man who asserts the child is evil?

NearNihil Experience

I never said it was the only way, sorry that what I said seemsed to imply that, unintentional... just pointing out the most common way and most popular way(evidently). The Temple was a very important theme in the life of Ancient Jews, but there were many that never reached the temple because they lived too far away etc...Sumeritans is an example I can think of.

And my point was your point that it is all a bit pointless, especially if you don't believe it. We don't disagree, you're talking across purposes.

And I think we have too look at Jesus as a new paradigm and a passing on of the old ways. I mean, afterall, his sacrifice totally changed the framework in which Jews were deemed Jews and Christians were deemed Christians. A line finally drawn in the sand, so to speak. Especially in the times-after when the actual religion became more codified. Jesus's sacrifice trumped everything because this was the plan from before all-time...the "in the beginning there was the Word" non-sense.

(stopping now before I start REALLY sounding like an apologist :Cheeky: )

Anyway, I absolutley concur to the point that sacrifice was not the only means of redemption in the OT, this is obvious...what I am not sure is how you are justifying saying that Jesus's sacrifice was remit? What I think you'll hear from apologists and the like is that his sacrifice trumps all former forms of sin-payment...especially original sin...one sin-debt no Temple sacrifice nor any inscence burning or burning goat could pay for.

inquisitive01

Unfortunately, being a Christian (or an atheist, agnostic, etc.) does not have to equal being very smart (Christians, atheists, agnostics, etc., alike can and do fall into either low, normal, or high IQ categories). Some Christians even seem to believe they are Christans simply because they attend a one-hour church service every Sunday, then they continue sinning the rest of the week (some might even sin in some way at the church service). What can you do?

Xrikcus, I am a Christian and I do not think that a child is born evil. Therefore, does logic dictate that I am evil like the ("Christian") man in your example? Actually, though, just because a man/woman MISTAKENLY believes a child is born evil (for whatever reasons ), that does not automatically make the man/woman either either (just mistaken).

Chili

He died to the sins of his world and told us to do the same to the sins of our world. What is wrong with that?

. . . and it was in dying to his sin nature that Christ was set free in the man that was called Jesus. Apparently it was just an identity problem (for good reason).

Xrikcus

Interesting... not my example... interesting anyway. Is the person who mistakingly doesn't believe in God evil in your particular line of christianity?