Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SwoleMan · 09-07-2004, 05:17 AM

A short question: am I right if I assert that the purpose of Jesus' death was to forgive mankind for not following the Mosaic law, a law which he (being Yahweh) himself had dictated?

rostau · 09-07-2004, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas83

A short question: am I right if I assert that the purpose of Jesus' death was to forgive mankind for not following the Mosaic law, a law which he (being Yahweh) himself had dictated?

This is not my understanding. In my understanding, Jesus' death signified "a new deal", ie it rendered Mosaic law (amongst other things) irrelevant. It was meant to include all mankind in a new covenant, replacing entirely the previous covenant that God made with Abraham, along with all the accoutrements of that covenant such as Mosaic law. The new deal is: accept Jesus as your personal saviour and you get into Heaven.

As to the 'forgiveness' aspect, Jesus theoretically forgives mankind for all sins on an ongoing basis, and also for the inherited Original Sin.

This is my understanding. I am, however, not a Christian.

Sensei Meela · 09-07-2004, 10:01 AM

Jesus' death "abolish[es] the list of ordinances that was against us." It does not nullify or replace Mosaic Law.

God's Law is eternal. He keeps track of all transgressions thereof. He destroys the list of transgressions against repentant, Christ-believing folk who are 'born from above.'

The common Christian notion that Mosaic Law has been abolished and replaced by the grace of Christ (through Jesus' death) is directly refuted by the Bible.

NearNihil Experience · 09-07-2004, 12:44 PM

My two cents,

remember how there was a Temple(a couple of times) in Israel. The people of the Temple were under the laws of sacrifice. Commit a sin against the laws of the OT and you paid for it with the blood of a small creature(bird, sheep, goat, whatever you could afford to buy)....the sin debt and blood payment needed to be relatively balanced or the entire nation would be subject to the wrath of God...who like the blood and flesh of mammals for some odd reason.

Anyway, God decides one day(long before everything was created) that He's tired of a bunch of wandering priest-victims getting it all so wrong but trying sooo hard...so he sends to earth an animal whose blood is sooooo good to him that by sacrificing this particular animal will remit all sin through eternity nacted by not only those whacky Jews who tried so hard, but for everyone everywhere in every time. This animal, whose blood was such powerful magic was of course a man we know today as Jesus Christ. By infusing Jesus with some God-stuffs, it made his blood magically pure enough to wash away all sins for all time...

...the catch... believe that this gob of psycho-hooey about sins and magic and sacrifices and how they all fit together so nice and neatly for your benefit. The purpose in Jesus's death was atone for all sins and offer as exchange for this attonment your soul, your life, and your mind. If you fear not death, nor what lies past, nor the life you live now, this sacrifice has meant nothing but emotional and psychological blackmail, to others this one act, far back in history has given you the opportunity to stand up and say, "I am scared of life, please save me from it...I am scared of death, please save me from it...I am scared that I alone am no master to myself, please be my master". The purpose of Jesus's sacrifice may have been to save humanity, but what it has done is offer a route to shuffled responsibility and a history where that sacrifice has driven man against man in many places and occassions in history.

Chris Weimer · 09-07-2004, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NearNihil Experience

remember how there was a Temple(a couple of times) in Israel. The people of the Temple were under the laws of sacrifice. Commit a sin against the laws of the OT and you paid for it with the blood of a small creature(bird, sheep, goat, whatever you could afford to buy)....the sin debt and blood payment needed to be relatively balanced or the entire nation would be subject to the wrath of God...who like the blood and flesh of mammals for some odd reason.

I disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pninah1

In the Torah, blood sacrifices were not the only path to atonement; there were other ways to achieve forgiveness. For example, incense served to atone for the people in Numbers 16:46-47, and giving charity is described in Exodus 30:15-16 and Numbers 31:50 as `making atonement for your souls' - the same expression as in Leviticus 17:11. In reality, blood sacrifices were the least effective of all the means of atonement mentioned in the Bible. One important limitation to the effectiveness of sacrifices is that they were only brought for unintentional sins (ie. someone didn't know that kindling a fire was prohibited on the Sabbath, or they were aware of this, but thought it was Sunday when kindling the fire). Sacrifices did not help to atone for sins that were done intentionally (Leviticus 4, and Numbers 15:22-31).

Examining the Christian interpretation of Leviticus 17:11 generates some serious problems. What happens if someone can't afford to purchase an animal for his sin offering? Is it possible that G-d would institute a system of atonement that could only be used by the wealthy? The Torah took this into account and allowed the poor person to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons if he couldn't afford a lamb (Leviticus 5:7). However, what if someone was so destitute, that he couldn't afford even these small birds?

"But if his means are insufficient for two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then for his offering for that which he has sinned, he shall bring the tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall not put oil on it or place incense on it, for it is a sin offering." (Leviticus 5:11)

From here

SwoleMan · 09-07-2004, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NearNihil Experience

My two cents,

remember how there was a Temple(a couple of times) in Israel. The people of the Temple were under the laws of sacrifice. Commit a sin against the laws of the OT and you paid for it with the blood of a small creature(bird, sheep, goat, whatever you could afford to buy)....the sin debt and blood payment needed to be relatively balanced or the entire nation would be subject to the wrath of God...who like the blood and flesh of mammals for some odd reason.

Anyway, God decides one day(long before everything was created) that He's tired of a bunch of wandering priest-victims getting it all so wrong but trying sooo hard...so he sends to earth an animal whose blood is sooooo good to him that by sacrificing this particular animal will remit all sin through eternity nacted by not only those whacky Jews who tried so hard, but for everyone everywhere in every time. This animal, whose blood was such powerful magic was of course a man we know today as Jesus Christ. By infusing Jesus with some God-stuffs, it made his blood magically pure enough to wash away all sins for all time...

Hehe, yes, it's fascinating how very fond of blood Yahweh is. It sure makes him look quite unsophisticated.

Anyway, I recall Jesus complaining about the Jews following the law by mouth but not by heart or something like that. What did he mean?

Gooch's dad · 09-07-2004, 02:01 PM

Odd that Jesus supposedly made precious little mention of annulling the Mosaic law. Nor did he seem to mention the vicarious atonement, either. John 3:16 comes sorta close, but leaves out the entire sin/atonement bit.

It was apparently left to Paul to come up with the "purpose of Jesus' death".

NearNihil Experience · 09-07-2004, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cweb255

I disagree.

From here

For example, incense served to atone for the people in Numbers 16:46-47, and giving charity is described in Exodus 30:15-16 and Numbers 31:50 as `making atonement for your souls' - the same expression as in Leviticus 17:11. In reality, blood sacrifices were the least effective of all the means of atonement mentioned in the Bible. One important limitation to the effectiveness of sacrifices is that they were only brought for unintentional sins (ie. someone didn't know that kindling a fire was prohibited on the Sabbath, or they were aware of this, but thought it was Sunday when kindling the fire). Sacrifices did not help to atone for sins that were done intentionally (Leviticus 4, and Numbers 15:22-31).

So Jesus covers all these...charity, no need, just have faith in Jesus...no need to burn inscence... love Jesus...

But Jesus does!

I was unaware of these passages relating to remission and payment of sin.
killer. :thumbs:

But I am not sure what you are disagreeing with.

NearNihil Experience · 09-07-2004, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas83

Anyway, I recall Jesus complaining about the Jews following the law by mouth but not by heart or something like that. What did he mean?

"Its not what goes into a man's mouth that defile him, it is that which comes out."
Somewhere in the gospels.

I think one way to look at this is the simply as a comment on dietary laws, and Jesus's disfondness of them, and of being careful what you say.

Though I am sure we could dig up multiple interpretations on various contexts as to what this actually meant.

Sensei Meela · 09-07-2004, 06:38 PM

I wrote about the 'abolishing' of the Law once, here. It's a tad on the lengthy side, be warned.

09-07-2004, 05:17 AM	#1
SwoleMan Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,190	The purpose of Jesus' death A short question: am I right if I assert that the purpose of Jesus' death was to forgive mankind for not following the Mosaic law, a law which he (being Yahweh) himself had dictated?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-07-2004, 10:01 AM	#3
Sensei Meela Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: AZ, u.s.a. Posts: 1,202	Jesus' death "abolish[es] the list of ordinances that was against us." It does not nullify or replace Mosaic Law. God's Law is eternal. He keeps track of all transgressions thereof. He destroys the list of transgressions against repentant, Christ-believing folk who are 'born from above.' The common Christian notion that Mosaic Law has been abolished and replaced by the grace of Christ (through Jesus' death) is directly refuted by the Bible.

09-07-2004, 12:44 PM	#4
NearNihil Experience Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Up Shit Creek Posts: 1,810	My two cents, remember how there was a Temple(a couple of times) in Israel. The people of the Temple were under the laws of sacrifice. Commit a sin against the laws of the OT and you paid for it with the blood of a small creature(bird, sheep, goat, whatever you could afford to buy)....the sin debt and blood payment needed to be relatively balanced or the entire nation would be subject to the wrath of God...who like the blood and flesh of mammals for some odd reason. Anyway, God decides one day(long before everything was created) that He's tired of a bunch of wandering priest-victims getting it all so wrong but trying sooo hard...so he sends to earth an animal whose blood is sooooo good to him that by sacrificing this particular animal will remit all sin through eternity nacted by not only those whacky Jews who tried so hard, but for everyone everywhere in every time. This animal, whose blood was such powerful magic was of course a man we know today as Jesus Christ. By infusing Jesus with some God-stuffs, it made his blood magically pure enough to wash away all sins for all time... ...the catch... believe that this gob of psycho-hooey about sins and magic and sacrifices and how they all fit together so nice and neatly for your benefit. The purpose in Jesus's death was atone for all sins and offer as exchange for this attonment your soul, your life, and your mind. If you fear not death, nor what lies past, nor the life you live now, this sacrifice has meant nothing but emotional and psychological blackmail, to others this one act, far back in history has given you the opportunity to stand up and say, "I am scared of life, please save me from it...I am scared of death, please save me from it...I am scared that I alone am no master to myself, please be my master". The purpose of Jesus's sacrifice may have been to save humanity, but what it has done is offer a route to shuffled responsibility and a history where that sacrifice has driven man against man in many places and occassions in history.

09-07-2004, 02:01 PM	#7
Gooch's dad Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Madison WI USA Posts: 3,508	Odd that Jesus supposedly made precious little mention of annulling the Mosaic law. Nor did he seem to mention the vicarious atonement, either. John 3:16 comes sorta close, but leaves out the entire sin/atonement bit. It was apparently left to Paul to come up with the "purpose of Jesus' death".

09-07-2004, 06:38 PM	#10
Sensei Meela Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: AZ, u.s.a. Posts: 1,202	I wrote about the 'abolishing' of the Law once, here. It's a tad on the lengthy side, be warned.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.