Ben C Smith

Tacitus refers to a person called Christ who was executed under Pontius Pilate in Judea and after whom the group known as the Christians were named.

Hmmm. Quite a poser, that. Wonder who it could be....

:huh:

Ben.

Ben C Smith

You are absolutely right (except number 2). Tacitus gives us no information on how old Christus was or in which year of Tiberius he was executed (answer to number 2). He does not even tell us his favorite color or soccer team!

It is not an act of faith. It is an act of reading.

Ben.

spamandham

It certainly could be the figure we refer to as Jesus Christ, but whether or not it obvioulsy is depends on a few things:

- how many people were executed under Pilate? I've always understood him to be a butcher, but I certainly can't support that notion.

- how many people people in Judea had a following and called themselves Christus?

I don't know the answer to these questions.

aa5874

Again, where in "Annals" did you read that Christus is Jesus of Nazareth?

You NEVER read such a thing, unless you have a "Special" copy of "Annals".

patcleaver

We know that Caesar was a very famous person when Ovid mentions him.

You have no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was even know at the time of Tacitus, Suetonius, or Pliny.

What is your evidence that those sections of Tacitus or Suetonius or Pliny existed before the 4th century?

You have the burden of proving that those sections of those documents are reliable before they can be used as evidence of anyting.

Christ just means anointed and lots of people were anointed. Jesus, Christus and Crestus were all common names. Lots of groups that had nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth were called or called themselves Christians or Chrestians before the 4th century.

Philo and Josephus did not mention any Jesus of Nazareth unless you count lying Christian forgeries.

aa5874

In "Church History", Eusebius claimed that Theophilus of Antioch was a bishop of the church at Antioch and was the sixth person after the apostles to do so, and claimed that his three books titled "To Autolycus" were still extant.

"Church History" 4.20 "Church History" 4.24 But upon reading these three books, it is soon realized that although Theophilus of Antioch called himself a Christian, he appears NOT to be a follower or believer in Jesus Christ or to be aware of this Jesus Christ..

There is NOT a single mention of Jesus Christ, Jesus of Nazareth, Christ the Saviour, the prophecies of Jesus, the virgin birth of Jesus, the temptation of Jesus, the baptism of Jesus, the sayings of Jesus, the miracles of Jesus, the crucifixion of Jesus, the resurrection of Jesus or the ascension of Jesus.

Nothing whatsoever about Jesus is in Theophilus' three books "To Autolycus".

But on the other hand, Theophilus made mention of numerous philosophers, gods and characters of the OT.

This a partial list.

• Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, David, Solomon. Malachi, God, Holy Spirit....

• Jove, Matis, Vulcan, Juno, Neptune, Apollo, Bacchus, Hercules, Minerva...

• Plato, Homer, Phythagoras, Epicurius, Herodotus, Menander, Sophocles....

And it is even more remarkable that Theophilus actually made mention of his belief that there would be a resurrection, yet failed to mention that Jesus was resurrected.

"To Autolycus"1.13 Theophilus mentioned that Hercules and AEsculapius were raised from the dead but never mentioned to Autolycus that Jesus Christ also was believed to have been raised .

The three books of "To Autolycus" appear to indicate that there were Christians who were not followers or believers in Jesus Christ and seem totally unaware of him up to the last half of the 2nd century.

Doug Shaver

You seem to be suggesting that it originated among Latin speakers and then was borrowed by Greek speakers. Is that what you mean to say?

aa5874

It can be shown, again, that the word "Christian" was not always associated with Jesus Christ in the writing of Athenagoras of Athens in "A plea for the Christians".

It is seen once more that Athenagoras claimed that he is a Christian yet [b]NEVER[B] mentioned the following words:

• Jesus, Jesus Christ, Jesus of Nazareth, Christ, Christ our Saviour...
• The prophecies about Jesus Christ.
• The virgin birth, baptism, or temptation of Jesus.
• The sayings, miracles, or transfiguration of Jesus.
• The crucifixion, resurrection or ascension of Jesus.

But Athenagoras mentioned the son of God and he called Him Logos and this Logos is the Intelligence, Reason and Wisdom of God.

Athenagoras in "A plea for the Christians" So, astonishingly. Athenagoras mentioned the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and did NOT say a single word about Jesus Christ, but Athenagoras did make mention of the following gods, philosophers and writers:

• Zeus, Rhea, Kore, Hector, Helen, Adrasteia, Artemus, Agamemnon, Phylonoe, Tennes, Celeus, Apollo, Hercules, Lysander, Niobe, Poisedon, Pandrosus, Euleusis, Artemus....
  
• Diagones, Euripides, Philulaus, Lysis, Opsimus, Pythagorus, Plato, Aristotle, Homer, Hesiod, Herodotus, Creto, Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah.....

Again, Jesus Christ is completely missing, Athenagoras appears not to be a follower, believer or even aware that there was someone called Jesus Christ upto the 2nd century.

TJ12

I thought the whole "Jesus of Nazareth didn't really exist and neither did the apostles" thing was passe at this point. *shrug*

I think 12 scared guys wanting their dead beloved teacher to be more than he actually was is the simplest, most plausible explanation. But that's just me.

arnoldo

You are correct that they were 12 scared guys after the execution of their leader. However, according to christian theology, after pentecost they were fearless. . .