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Old 08-06-2007, 02:58 PM   #101
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Of course, I completely disagree with these statements. Jahve is not a god? Not and idol fashioned with the mind? Brunner, who was a follower of Spinoza, seems to be interpreting Jewish scripture according to some later developed abstract philosophical notions not compatible with the conceptions and believes of the early Hebrews (or with those of modern Christians).
Here is the broader context of the quotation I first provided:
Jahveh ehad, cried Moses: "Hear O Israel, Being is our god, Being is one" (Deut. 6:4).

Yet this quotation provides precisely the historically monstrous example of how Israel hears and how the truth is straightway transformed into superstition in Israel's ears. For this magnificent saying is at once a hymn of exultation and a wrathful protest against idol worship of any kind; but despite this protest, it now signifies—in the conception of Israel, the Jewish, Christian and Muslim Israel—the well-enough known, imbecilically wrong translation: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our god is the only God!".... Moses said that thou shalt not make unto thee any image of this Jahveh, no imagination of it, i.e., it is that which cannot be thought as things are thought, as if it had the same sort of being as things—I am that I am (Ex. 3:14)! Jahveh, Being, is the term for the wholly abstract spiritual; it has no relation to the relative world. By Jahveh, the wholly great is meant. It means the same thing as Spinoza does in his great—his absolutely great expression, Ens constans infinitis attributis (Absolute Being with infinite attributes.) And Jahveh Tsebaot, Jahveh of infinite powers, is nothing but the mystical expression of the same thing as is expressed philosophically by Ens constans infinitis attributis. The whole tremendous concern of Judaism lies in this phrase Jahveh ehad [Ehad=one and only. Pronunciation; with a gutteral 'kh', accent on the second syllable], in that single word Jahveh, which was ultimately forbidden even to be pronounced, and to pronounce which was a deadly sin. The mystical primordial character of Judaism—so naturally mystical that the Jews, in spite of their having made Jahvism into religion, never established a mythology, even while their Jahveh always remained exalted as God over every god of other religions, so that other ancient civilizations did not recognize him as a god, and said the Jews were without religion and atheistic—the mystical primordial character of Judaism expressed itself in this, its ineffable holy word.—Brunner, Our Christ, p. 157-8

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He strikes me as overly mystical, emphatic and dogmatic.
You're certainly not the first to say so. Even many of his partisans find his style problematic. I do have a Brunner thread, if you want to discuss this further.
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:18 PM   #102
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Chris, we don't need scholars for everything. We need discourse, conversation, patience, tolerance, maturity.
IDiots say the same thing.

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What good does it do to put anyone on ignore?
My blood pressure. I can only stand so much nanny nanny boo boo I'm don't care about scholars before I have to either put them on ignore or throw up.
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Old 08-07-2007, 12:22 AM   #103
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Does anyone know if the Bible has ever been published under the title, Judeo-Christian Mythology?

If it hasn't I think it should. Would help putting Christians in their proper place.
Because the Bible can't be described as mythology. Parts of it can, to be sure, but it's dishonest to lump the whole thing as myth.

Also, I'm glad to see that Chris pwnd this thread, putting it in its proper place.
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Old 08-07-2007, 12:48 AM   #104
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Does anyone know if the Bible has ever been published under the title, Judeo-Christian Mythology?

If it hasn't I think it should. Would help putting Christians in their proper place.
Because the Bible can't be described as mythology. Parts of it can, to be sure, but it's dishonest to lump the whole thing as myth.

Also, I'm glad to see that Chris pwnd this thread, putting it in its proper place.
Watch out! You might get accused of being a closet Christian too.
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:11 AM   #105
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Also, I'm glad to see that Chris pwnd this thread, putting it in its proper place.
Really? I wasn't aware of that. Can you show the place where that occured?

Seems to me rather that Weimer lost the debate the moment he quoted a scholar that contradicted his entire premise.
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:37 AM   #106
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Seems to me
That's nice.
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Old 08-07-2007, 06:21 AM   #107
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Seems to me
That's nice.
Thanks, it certainly is...since it is proper scientific expression. You should learn such usage, rather than making absolute statements that contradict factual events. Otherwise it could be interpreted that you are careless when participating in discussions.
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Old 08-07-2007, 08:10 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by figuer View Post
Does anyone know if the Bible has ever been published under the title, Judeo-Christian Mythology?

If it hasn't I think it should. Would help putting Christians in their proper place.
Because the Bible can't be described as mythology. Parts of it can, to be sure, but it's dishonest to lump the whole thing as myth.

Also, I'm glad to see that Chris pwnd this thread, putting it in its proper place.
Ummmmm..... in which alternate reality was this? Chris lost the moment he posted that "scholarly definition", which perfectly described the bible. Seems I'll have to repeat my post here (which, I notice, Chris decidedly ignored).


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Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

I'm sensing epic pwnage.

Bascom, William. "The Forms of Folklore: Prose Narratives." The Journal of American Folklore vol. 78, no. 307 (1965): 3-20.


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Myths are prose narratives which, in the society in which they are told, are considered to be truthful accounts of what happened in the remote past. They are accepted on faith; they are taught to be believed; and they can be cited as authority in answer to ignorance, doubt, or disbelief. Myths are the embodiment of dogma; they are usually sacred; and they are often associated with theology and ritual. Their main characters are not usually human beings, but they often have human attributes; they are animals, deities, or culture heroes, whose actions are set in an earlier world, when the earth was different from what it is today, or in another world such as the sky or underworld. Myths account for the origin or the world, or mankind, of death, or for characteristics of birds, animals, geographical features, and the phenomena of nature. They may recound the activities of the deities, their love affairs, their family relationships, their friendships and enmities, their victories and defeats. They may purport to "explain" details of ceremonial paraphernalia or ritual, or why tabus must be observed, but such etiological elements are not confined to myths.

Um wow. That just described the Bible (or at the very least, the OT)




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Myths are prose narratives

Sounds like the Bible to me.


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which, in the society in which they are told, are considered to be truthful accounts of what happened in the remote past.
Sounds like the Jewish society, etc.



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They are accepted on faith; they are taught to be believed;
I believe that aptly describes how the Bible is taught, etc.



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and they can be cited as authority in answer to ignorance, doubt, or disbelief.
Very common among Christians/Jews, etc.



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Myths are the embodiment of dogma;
Bible sure sounds like: "a system of principles or tenets, as of a church."


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they are usually sacred;
Sounds like the Bible to me.


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and they are often associated with theology and ritual.
Definitely the Bible.



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Their main characters are not usually human beings, but they often have human attributes; they are animals, deities, or culture heroes, whose actions are set in an earlier world, when the earth was different from what it is today, or in another world such as the sky or underworld.
Well, seems the Bible is one of the ones that are human beings (as it says "usually not")



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Myths account for the origin or the world,
Genesis 1 anyone?



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or mankind,
Genesis 1 anyone?


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of death,
Apples anyone? ("you will surely die")



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or for characteristics of birds, animals,
Serpents curse to crawl on their bellies, anyone?


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geographical features,
Dunno about this one, but Creationists usuall use it as such.



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and the phenomena of nature.
Rainbows anyone?



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They may recound the activities of the deities, their love affairs, their family relationships,
Funny, I sure thought the Bible recounted the activities and family relationships of Jesus (and, controversially, the "love affairs" )



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their friendships
Discliples, Mary and Martha, Nicodemus, etc.



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and enmities,
Herod, Pilate, etc.



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their victories
Victory over satan, anyone?



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and defeats.
Well, this one doesn't fit, but only because he's portrayed as holy and perfect.


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They may purport to "explain" details of ceremonial paraphernalia or ritual, or why tabus must be observed, but such etiological elements are not confined to myths.
That sure sounds like it too.
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Old 08-07-2007, 08:43 AM   #109
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Ummmmm..... in which alternate reality was this?
Chidoria, which is a province of Weimerland, a country north of the North Pole.
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:40 AM   #110
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Well, seems the Bible is one of the ones that are human beings (as it says "usually not")
Does the book of Ruth, for example, qualify as a myth? How about the seemingly endless genealogies?

Instead of brushing off this inconsistency, perhaps one might be motivated to apply one's reason to determine if the application of "mythology" to the entire collection represents an example of logical fallacy of composition.
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