sschlichter

[QUOTE=Zenaphobe;5729801]disbelief is no surprise to God. Why indication do you have that there was any expectation of beleif on your part?

What is imperfect and human about God coming in person to justify those who place their faith (knowledge, belief, and commitment) in his sacrifice. Seems quite perfect and divine to me.

I respect the position of an agnostic. However, I cannot remain agnostic because I have met God through Christ. You might as well try to convince me wife does not exist.

I suppose God could have kept everyone in a box, allowed no choices, thwarted brain activity, and prevented all manner of offenses that man commits. Perhaps this would have worked. Why don't you go ahead and supply your more economic plan of redemption.

It really does not matter because the only one presented to me was redemption through Christ - as foolish as it may be.

sschlichter

so is yours. It would take 5 questions to get you to appeal to something you beleive but cannot prove.

maybe just stating it over and over will make it true.

that is the bastardized version. As with many of the best characteristics of our culture. Ideas that were started by a christan are stripped of it's Christian heritage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous

I think you will find it's effectiveness is related to the higher power.

Have you found that to be effective? Nationally speaking the answer is decidely no.

harshly to me, means something like this.
http://www.bootcampsforteens.com/index.html

sschlichter

You are inadvertently switching arguments. You are suggesting that hitman is a slave and deserves to be so because of ignorance. The fact is that while I do not beleive it to be true in hitmans case, the argument is a correct one and it is the argument that you have been arguing against.

When it came time to put your ideas to shoe leather, you have suggested that less educated people, in our culture have less financial and social options than others and it is possible that this is due to ignorance. this was true in biblical times and is true in our time. The only difference is the terms and conditions.

Your conditions are beyond what anyone in the ANE could have imagined. You live better than a King in the ANE. Never hungry, never cold, etc. Those less fortunate than you in our culture live proportionately better than the less fortunate then. Slaves then and hard workers now making minimum wage who cannot afford health care, a house, a phone are in the same position.

When, those on this site state that since they are fed, retired and do not want for anything must mean that the whole world is in the same boat are not paying attention.

Zenaphobe

Oh, I dunno, maybe the numerous Christians who tell me I'll go to Hell if I don't accept their message.




Why do you answer my question with another question, or do you even pay attention to what is said?

My point is, if Yahweh desires the salvation of as many humans as possible, why use a method such as appearing in one little geographical area and using human effort that will require thousands of years to reach the whole world while billions will perish in the meantime because they never hear the message? That is what I mean when I say "imperfect means."

According to the Bible, was Yahweh's intention to save the most humans possible, or is the verse about wanting "all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" mean something else?




Well, I suppose until someone comes up with an answer or Yahweh introduces himself to me, I will maintain my agnosticism about the origins of the universe.


If Yahweh's plan was for all men to hear the Gospel and be saved from eternal Hell he could have done so without the limits of human agency to spread the message.

He could have appeared in every civilization and sacrificed himself every new generation and wrote it all down in their mother tongue and answered any questions through an audible voice for all to hear. He IS able to do that, being all powerful and what-not, correct?

I know that you have to believe that what the Bible records is the best that could have been hoped for, but what I described is far superior in reaching the whole of mankind and making sure they know Yahweh's will if he wants "all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."


I'm curious, what keeps a Christian like yourself coming here to debate people who reject the gospel?

Exciter

No I am not. That is response to sugarhitman's post to Zenaphobe. If anything sugarhitman is guilty of switching arguements, a tactic he uses when cornered by his uneducated statements, like the one in that post.

No, I have been saying slavery is immoral. sugarhitman started ranting and preaching that everybody has to serve something and that he is more or less to a job so he can have food and shelter. You have stated the same thing more or less, to justify the Bible's immoral slavery.

You both seem to have made some very ignorant and bad choices, but this is not true for eveyone. Both of you seem to think everybody is in the same shit creek you guys are drowning in.
Ignorance and arrogance, don't forget and emphasize the arrogant part....
Not really. You really, still, only have the Bible as your source of how things were back then, and only your veiw of how things are now.
So what does that tell you?

I hope so... slavery was rampant back then.

How is it that hard workers today live in their conditions involuntary?


To what... some guy on the street corner holding up a sign that says "Will Work For Food"? Lol, I already have stated what that amounts to.

I also don't remember saying everyone is in the same boat I'm in. Sounds like someone is not seeing things as they are.

I know not everyone is in my boat, but that is due to their own ignorance and arrogance.

Zenaphobe

Read the bolded part above. Do I need to believe those things to be literally true to be a Christian?

Answer a simple yes or no.

Matthew 5:37 (New International Version)

37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.


If you say anything but yes or no to my question I am going to consider it as coming from the evil one.



What? I didn't hear you. I was too busy acting out the lyrics of a song and watching my IQ plummet. :wave:

When you were an unbeliever did you find song lyrics affecting your behavior?

For example, what would this song make you want to do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHRDxWHYU8M

sweetpea7

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I would label myself an agnostic. I apply a standard of reasonableness when considering whether to believe something.

And usually for good reason.

I'm merely stating the obvious. Science has given us all of the benefits of medicine and technolgy. What has the bible provided? Religious wars and intolerance?


I'll agree that the belief in a higher power-but certainly not limited to the Jewish or Xian god-can be a powerful motivator for some people. That doesn't show that there is magic involved, merely that the religion is meeting the emotional needs of the person.

There are only degrees of effectiveness. There is not a simple solution. I find boot camps for teens morally offensive as well as ineffective. Even beyond that, they can be dangerous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_fo...ens#Criticisms

Bolding mine.

sschlichter

There are not enough virgins for that plan. I do not beleive that absence of proof is really the issue. It would not matter. Of course God could have done that, but people would convince themselves that the perpetually dying man is from Satan and should be ignored. He has maintained a presence and makes himself known to those who draw near to him. He is God and we are not.

I was invited to discuss slavery in Mosaic law. You brought up the topic of the gospel.

sschlichter

No

sschlichter

so, poverty is a condition of ignorance and arrogance?

actually, we cited archeological evidence from an Ivy League school, quotes from a 1st century historian. What do you need, film footage?

What do you think is the cure for ignorance and arrogance?