mountainman

“The [religious] revolution of the fourth century . . .
will not be understood if we underrate
the determination, almost the fierceness,
with which the Christians appreciated and exploited

the miracle

that had transformed Constantine
into a supporter, a protector, and later a legislator
of the Christian church.”

—Arnaldo Momigliano,
The Conflict Between Paganism and Christianity in the Fourth Century


So who here appreciates Momigliano's wit?
Do you think Momigliano believed in miracles?
And if not, what message is being broadcast?




Pete Brown
Did Constantine creat Christianity?

spin

Momigliano here presupposes christians before Constantine.

mountainman

IMO here Momigliano refers to the activities of christians
after the miracle that had transformed Constantine,
not the other way around, as you presuppose.



Pete

spin

"the miracle that had transformed Constantine
into a supporter, a protector, and later a legislator
of the Christian church"

Just prior to Constantine's sole control the church was being persecuted. Constantine was already a caesar in the administration at the time. Some miracle transformed him into a supporters...

Read your own text.


spin

gstafleu

I think I agree with spin that the most natural reading is that there were (persecuted) Christians before Constantine. I don't quite see how "determination, almost the fierceness" could apply to something Constantine invented out of whole cloth. I can see the surprise if Constantine's attitude change from-infinity to +infinity, though. But from 0 to +infinity?

BTW, did you ever hear back from Torrens?

Gerard Stafleu

mountainman

If Constantine invented christianity out of the whole cloth
he certainly did not advertise this to the empire - it was a
hidden agenda, not open knowledge.

The "determination, almost the fierceness" refers to the nature
of the support he engendered from his "new supporters". Who
are the supporters of a supreme imperial mafia thug dictator?
Well, anyone he can gather together on his bandwaggon.



The "most natural reading" brings in much that Momigliano doesn't
actually say, and totally avoids the mention of the word "miracle".

Why does the world's foremost ancient historian (nb: being Jewish)
use the term "miracle" in regard to the transformation of Constantine?
This is what I'd like to know.


I did actually exchange a few emails with him. He is a 60 y/o
professor who is still involved in teaching, and has little time
for translating his work into English. I offered to host any of
his translations on my website whenever he could afford the
time to translate. However, I get the impression that unless
someone else organises independent translations, Torren's work
will remain sitting in the spanish.

Best wishes,


Pete

spin

Here is what I said:

The miracle is there if you would only read it.

I'm glad that you've started to get acquainted with Momigliano. I've actually got a few of his books, one called Alien Wisdom on my shelf and a collection of essays in a box somewhere I can't find. Why don't you cite the source and more of the passage you referred to?

And there are lots of important historians of the ancient world. Your hyperbole is bit vacuous.

As I explained, the christians were unexpectedly saved from persecution and given pride of place. Constantine was on the persecutors' side and suddenly, he is raising the persecuted into positions of importance. That is quite a miracle for those persecuted.


spin

mountainman

I am expectingto collect one, or possibly two of his books, in the next
few days at a local library, and I must say I am looking forward to
having a read through his observations.

When I find it I will do so, for sure. The quote is in isolation and was
found tring to search for M's articles online. I think I got it from here.


I will be very very interested to read M's opinion about the historicity
of the purported pre-nicene persecution. (I will purposefully avoid
repeating my own opinion about the existence of pre-nicene persecutions.)

He (M) gets stuck right into both Tertullion and the mainstream Barnes





Best wishes,



Pete

mountainman

Here is the opening paragraph ...

Pagan and Christian Historiography
in the Fourth Century A.D.
--- ARNALDO MOMIGLIANO (1959/60)

On 28 October 312 the Christians suddenly and
unexpectedly found themselves victorious. The
victory was a miracle - though opinions differed
as to the nature of the sign vouchsafed to
Constantine. The winners became conscious of
their victory in a mood of resentment and
vengeance. A voice shrill with implacable hatred
announced to the world the victory of the Milvian
Bridge: Lactatius' De mortibus persecutorum.
In this horrible pamphlet by the author of De ira
dei there is something of the violence of the
prophets without the redeeming sense of tragedy
that inspired Nahum's song for the the fall of
Nineveh.

Also in the first part (of 4 parts) in this essay, is the second
reference to this "miracle". The expanded context of this quote
is as follows:

If there were men who recommended tolerance
and peaceful coexistence of Christians and pagans,
they were rapidly crowded out. The Christians
were ready to take over the ROman empire, as
Eusebius made clear in the introduction of the
Preparatio evangelica where he emphasises
the correlation between pax romana and
the Christian message: the thought indeed was
not even new. The Christians were also determined
to make impossible a return to the conditions of
inferiority and persecution for the Church. The
problems and conflicts inside the Church which
all this implied may be left aside for the moment.

“The revolution of the fourth century,
carrying with it a new historiography
will not be understood if we underrate
the determination, almost the fierceness,
with which the Christians appreciated and exploited
the miracle
that had transformed Constantine
into a supporter, a protector, and later a legislator
of the Christian church.”

One fact is eloquent enough. All the pioneer works
in the field of Christian historiography are earlier
than what we may call their opposite numbers in
pagan historiography."

END QUOTAGE




Pete Brown

spin

Good show.

And how do you think this extra material from Momigliano's essay has impact on the quote you've already supplied?


spin