Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roland · 01-20-2009, 09:25 PM

Much has been made of the fact the first known mention of Israel is found on the Merneptah Stele, which appears to record the defeat of a people called Israel at the hands of the Egyptians circa 1207 B.C.

This is what the text states:

"Israel is wasted, bare of seed" or "Israel lies waste, its seed no longer exists"

My question is whether such a major event is recorded anywhere in the Bible. After all, much space is given over to chronicling Israel's many conflicts with its neighbors, but I don't recall there being any such event mentioned in the Old Testament. (If it happened, it would have been at some point during the "time of the judges"). Yet, it seems as if Egypt pretty much disappears from the narrative entirely after Pharaoh's army is drowned in the Red Sea, never to be heard from again.

How do believers square this silence in the Biblical account with the stele, which they always seem to point to with such pride for its seeming endorsement of an early historical Israel?

Analyst · 01-20-2009, 10:08 PM

I also note no reference to the city of Petra which is slightly surprising. Are the Nabataeans mentioned anywhere in ancient Jewish writings?

Huon · 01-21-2009, 12:54 AM

I never understood why the English give the name of a defeat to a railway station, such as Waterloo station, and nothing for Fontenoy ...

Toto · 01-21-2009, 01:54 AM

Christian Answers does not identify a particular event, but claims that this stele is proof that Israel was a nation and important enough to be mentioned, thereby refuting the skeptics and archeologists who think Israel evolved out of the regular inhabitants of Canaan.

There is a thread here on another board on this

Doug Shaver · 01-21-2009, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

How do believers square this silence in the Biblical account with the stele, which they always seem to point to with such pride for its seeming endorsement of an early historical Israel?

Probably by pointing out that just because the Bible doesn't say it happened doesn't mean it didn't happen.

MortalWombat · 01-21-2009, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Christian Answers does not identify a particular event, but claims that this stele is proof that Israel was a nation and important enough to be mentioned, thereby refuting the skeptics and archeologists who think Israel evolved out of the regular inhabitants of Canaan.

Why would these two things necessarily be contradictory?

Toto · 01-21-2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MortalWombat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Christian Answers does not identify a particular event, but claims that this stele is proof that Israel was a nation and important enough to be mentioned, thereby refuting the skeptics and archeologists who think Israel evolved out of the regular inhabitants of Canaan.

Why would these two things necessarily be contradictory?

The stele is dated to 1210 BC, before Finkelstein thinks that Israel emerged or separated itself from the Canaanites.

Quote:

For example, a popular theory among Biblical scholars today is that Israel emerged from peoples indigenous to Canaan in the mid 12th century BC. If this is true, then Biblical history and chronology prior to ca. 1150 BC would have to be jettisoned.

Proponents of the “12th century emergence theory” maintain that the Israelites did not come into Canaan from outside to conquer the land around 1400 BC, as the Bible indicates. The emergence scenario would also reject the historicity of the Wilderness Wanderings, Exodus, Egyptian Sojourn and the Patriarchal narratives. However, if Israel were an established entity in Canaan already in 1210 BC, as the Merneptah Stela implies, then the 12th century emergence theory would be refuted (Bimson 1991). If Israel was well established by the end of the 13th century, it could not have come into being in the middle of the next century.

. . .

Bimson, J.J. 1991 “Merenptah's Israel and recent Theories of Israelite Origins”. Journal for the Study of the Old Testament 49: 3-29.

Analyst · 01-21-2009, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Christian Answers does not identify a particular event, but claims that this stele is proof that Israel was a nation and important enough to be mentioned, thereby refuting the skeptics and archeologists who think Israel evolved out of the regular inhabitants of Canaan.

Puffing up the importance and strength of those you have conquered is hardly unlikely. It's similar to counting all members of the 'Coalition of the Willing' without weighing their contributions. It does nothing to downplay the Canaanite origin theories.

Casper · 01-21-2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

"If Israel was well established by the end of the 13th century, it could not have come into being in the middle of the next century."

That seems pretty twisted, because if israel existed already as witnessed by the stele, then it was also destroyed already, as witnessed by the same stele.

The contradiction might be explained by the stele itself. What other notoriety is given to other "nations" and what was their significance as far as size? Maybe the tribe of israel was a marauding band of canaanites about 50 strong and they were wiped out as stated, only to have their name used by someone else later on? After all, the original Buccaneers of the caribbean were a little bit different than the ones who play in Tampa Bay today...

Casper · 01-21-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Analyst

Puffing up the importance and strength of those you have conquered is hardly unlikely.

I agree. After all, the hebrews "conquered" a whole nation of fearsome giants, not a nation of passive little midgets, right?

What do we know about other items on the stele?

01-20-2009, 09:25 PM	#1
Roland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 748	The Merneptah Stele and the Bible Much has been made of the fact the first known mention of Israel is found on the Merneptah Stele, which appears to record the defeat of a people called Israel at the hands of the Egyptians circa 1207 B.C. This is what the text states: "Israel is wasted, bare of seed" or "Israel lies waste, its seed no longer exists" My question is whether such a major event is recorded anywhere in the Bible. After all, much space is given over to chronicling Israel's many conflicts with its neighbors, but I don't recall there being any such event mentioned in the Old Testament. (If it happened, it would have been at some point during the "time of the judges"). Yet, it seems as if Egypt pretty much disappears from the narrative entirely after Pharaoh's army is drowned in the Red Sea, never to be heard from again. How do believers square this silence in the Biblical account with the stele, which they always seem to point to with such pride for its seeming endorsement of an early historical Israel?

01-20-2009, 10:08 PM	#2
Analyst Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: PNW USA Posts: 216	Nabataeans I also note no reference to the city of Petra which is slightly surprising. Are the Nabataeans mentioned anywhere in ancient Jewish writings?

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01-21-2009, 12:54 AM	#3
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	I never understood why the English give the name of a defeat to a railway station, such as Waterloo station, and nothing for Fontenoy ...

01-21-2009, 01:54 AM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Christian Answers does not identify a particular event, but claims that this stele is proof that Israel was a nation and important enough to be mentioned, thereby refuting the skeptics and archeologists who think Israel evolved out of the regular inhabitants of Canaan. There is a thread here on another board on this

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