Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Llyricist · 02-13-2006, 07:55 AM

Exodus 21:22-25 (NRSV)

Quote:

22 When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine. 23If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

The apologist may say that only applies to accidental abortion, however, if the woman dies, it would be just as accidental, but is treated as murder.

Interesting note, the Bible Gateway no longer has the NRSV, and all the translations they have render it as a premature birth, with ONE of them footnoting "or miscarriage" (Darby IIRC).

drewjmore · 02-13-2006, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Llyricist

The apologist may say that only applies to accidental abortion, however, if the woman dies, it would be just as accidental, but is treated as murder.

Expanding on this breif comment: would you say that this implies an exception for the "health of the mother"?

Llyricist · 02-13-2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewjmore

Expanding on this breif comment: would you say that this implies an exception for the "health of the mother"?

You'll have to expand a bit more for me to follow what you mean.

What I meant was that the "abortion" (miscarriage caused through mischief) was in no way considered the same as killing a person (the death or injury to the woman), being that both would be accidents under the circumstances described, but the "punishment" for the "abortion" was simple monetary compensation as opposed to the eye for an eye, etc..

drewjmore · 02-13-2006, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Llyricist

You'll have to expand a bit more for me to follow what you mean.

From your response, I'll deduce that you would not stretch your interpretation to square with mine: my 'insight' is that the quoted passage clearly differentiates between harm caused to the unborn, and harm caused to the mother-- in favor of the mother.

I've not seen a more direct reference to a child in-the-womb and it's 'personhood' in the bible. Sure, it's a terrible crime to genocidally disembowel pregnant women, however a woman's own decision to carry, nurture and sacrifice for a fetus, or not, ought to be free from prohibition. IMHO, of course.

Imnotspecial · 02-13-2006, 12:41 PM

I don't think that seeking answers in the Old Testament will prove useful in a discussion with todays Christians. The bible condoned poligamy, but, except Mormons, Christians do not approve of this now. Even if the bible would have approved of abortion, this would not mean that Christians would then be in favor of it today.

jakejonesiv · 02-13-2006, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It really makes no sense to say that a 3 month old fetus or younger has legal rights. But this is not the forum to discuss that issue.

That's right. It is a Constitutional question. Roe. v. Wade is based on the finding that the Bill of Rights protects a right to privacy. The antecedent was established in Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479 (1965).

The Supreme Court overturned a Connecticut law that criminalized the use of contraceptives even for married couples.

If you want to see conservatives sputter, ask them for their position on Griswold v. Connecticut.

hatsoff · 02-13-2006, 04:31 PM

The Didache is pretty clear on the subject. But the Bible? No, there is no case for or against abortion other than the "do not kill" commandment.

Tigers! · 02-13-2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mabus_Zero

Yes, but with the research that can be gleamed from a stockpile of harvested unborns, thousands of lives could be saved annually from diseases plaguing us currently, and diseases yet to come. One must ask a question concerning that:

Is a momentary sacrifice of others suitable for the saving of others yet to come?

Really, the concept has to do with the compromising of ones own morality, for the sake of the possibilities in the longterm.

((If this belongs in another section, please tell me.))

Why are you asking that others (i.e. the unborn) make the sacrifice rather than yourself?

Tigers! · 02-13-2006, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Girl

Then there's all the verses in the old testament where yahweh orders the hebrews to rip open all the pregnant women of a tribe they have just conquered and dash all the babies against the rocks...

It's in 2 Kings 8:12. Actually it describes what the Aramaeans will do to the Hebrews.

Toto · 02-13-2006, 04:46 PM

Didache 2.2:

Quote:

You shall do no murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not corrupt boys, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not deal in magic, you shall do no sorcery, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born, you shall not covet your neighbor's goods, you shall not perjure yourself, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall not cherish a grudge, you shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued;

The comment here:

Quote:

Both the Old and New Testaments contain injunctions against such behavior, but two things here are new -- "you shall not corrupt boys" and "you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born." Note how the modern controversy over whether abortion is "murder" is side-stepped here; it simply deserved a special category of acts not to be done by Christians.

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02-13-2006, 12:41 PM	#15
Imnotspecial Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North of South Posts: 5,389	I don't think that seeking answers in the Old Testament will prove useful in a discussion with todays Christians. The bible condoned poligamy, but, except Mormons, Christians do not approve of this now. Even if the bible would have approved of abortion, this would not mean that Christians would then be in favor of it today.

02-13-2006, 04:31 PM	#17
hatsoff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 740	The Didache is pretty clear on the subject. But the Bible? No, there is no case for or against abortion other than the "do not kill" commandment.

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