gnosis92

While I did NOT read Dore Gold's The Fight for Jerusalem: Radical Islam, the West, and the Future of the Holy City (or via: amazon.co.uk) cover to cover, I did read some select pages.

He claims
1- disbelief in Abraham, David, Solomon etc, is motivated by anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism,
2- it is fanned by Arab resentment and hostilities against Israel
3- seeks to delegitmize Jews claim to Israel and Jerusalem (he denies the Palestinians to any portion of the city)
4- it is all based on Finkelstein, which, he does NOT call anti-semitic, but does state that is used by anti-semitic groups. He states that all skepticism of Israel's origin is based on 1 scholar, and the Tel Dan enscription proves that Finkelstein is wrong and that David did exist as a figure of history.

Casper

I like Finkelstein myself, and while this is no refutation of the claim, I cringe when people appear to equate anti-semitism with anti-zionism.

Toto

The most convenient online resource on minimalism is this page of essays. Philip Davies "Minimalism, "Ancient Israel," and Anti-Semitism should be of interest.

Malachi151

I really hate this, because the more I study this subject the more I see that criticism of ancient Jewish culture and history is essential. The fact is, though, that no ancient culture was great by today's standards.

In reality though, yes, most of the history as presented in the Torah and the other ancient Hebrew scriptures is all bogus, and in reality much of the Jewish identity has been manufactured out of thin air.

Why Muslims think that this does anything for them I don't know, since their religion rests on the validity of those scriptures as well.

But, we have to refute the false history that is presented by the ancient Jews, the reality is that most of their history is made up and BS, they were after all an oppressed and unsuccessful people surrounded by large empires, and they were jealous and vindictive and trying to invent a past for themselves that they could be proud, since the truth of their own past was painful and debasing.

But, so what, these things don't reflect modern Jews any more than the fact that my Irish ancestors ran around naked with blue paint of their face and had sex with animals. None of us are our ancestors.

Look, ancient Jewish history is mostly lies, but so what? That shouldn't reflect on modern Jews nor should modern Jews prevent us from understanding the truth of their history.

Does it have implications for Israel? Eh, not really IMO. It may have had implications for the original formation of Israel, but I don't see how it matters now.

The fact is that Jewish history and the history of Egypt, Carthage, Greece, Rome, Persia, etc., doesn't harmonize, and the Jews are the odd man out. Their history is really the most inaccurate of the major players in the region.

All of the other histories are more trustworthy than the histories written by the ancient Jews, until you get to the recent ancient stuff, like Maccabees, etc.

Reality is reality and we have to face the facts.

Kosh

:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

If we believe mainstream north american history, are we then anti-mormonites?

haight

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww,BooHoo,everyones against the Jews!

Although they are not,people would be justified as Jews are the ones that started all the lies about Gods etc.

No,I'm not Anti-Semitic,I just get sick of hearing from whining Jews with hurt feelings when they are clearly responsible for far greater evils (religion) than a few Anti-semitic comments.Get over yourselves already!


I would not be surprised in the least if this post brings "RACIST" comments my way either.*shakes head in amazement*

spin

Zionism is a secular ideology, so there can be atheist Zionists, which means that those Zionists won't believe in Abraham et al. In fact the same is true for any atheist Jew.

I can understand Arab interest in the results of research done by those called minimalists, which would be for propaganda, just as some Zionists will show keen interest in the Davidic kingdom because of propaganda potential for a Greater Israel. This boils down to two faces of propaganda. The scholar is usually on a different wavelength, but can often suffer because of their work. So-called minimalist have been harrassed in various ways because of the political potential of their work, just as scientists were harrassed in the past.

That tells the story of the writer who wants to use religion for political purposes and anyone who contradicts him receives a torrent of abuse of the anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism stink. It is only political to refuse Palestinians access to the city which has their most important religious shrine, the city which they lived in for several centuries.

One first has to legitimize Jewish claim to Israel. Not all Jews are interested. In fact legitimizing the Jewish claim to Israel is a Zionist tool for leveraging Jews. Israelis, have a legitimate right to live where they were born, just as the Palestinians have that right, though it is denied to them. Delegimization first requires legitimization which cannot be taken for granted.

It's a difficult dance to try to call a Jew anti-Semitic, so that should explain why he opts not to do so. If the writer puts the logic onto Finkelstein then he contradicts his own tenets, for the origin is not anti-Semitic, so there is no reason to assume that the "minimalists" are necessarily anti-Semitic either.

If the OP's information is correct, the writer referred to merely seems like a base hypocrite and can happily be forgotten about -- except for his apparent Zionistic jingoism which only exacerbates the conflict in Israel. Anything that aims to legitimize one group and delegitimize the "other" is worthy of contempt.


spin

Rick Sumner

Which is quite amusing since Finkelstein in fact devoted his most recent book to the historical David, whom he is quite sure was an historical figure.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Malachi151

This issue just pisses me off because critical Biblical scholarship is hard enough already, and the fact is I think that most of the people wielding this charge of "anti-Semitism" aren't even Jews, they are Christians using the charge to try to and stifle critical scholarship.

spin

Sadly this doesn't seem to be correct. The so-called minimalists get hell from Israel. I remember when an Israeli scholar, Zeev Herzog, made mildly minimalist comments in a national Israeli newspaper, our good mate Hershel Shanks spewed bile at minimalism. It's true that Bill Dever cannot but attack the "minimalists", but that is because he wouldn't be all that distant from them, and it's a good survival ploy when you run with the more conservative elements to say "them" (and imply "not me"), but "minimalism" is alive in Israel and hated there as well.


spin