Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hum · 12-08-2004, 01:42 PM

I read recently (though I have no idea where !) a list of ancient libraries and the works which are believed to have been destroyed at the hands of Christians. The numbers were quite staggering. I am wondering if anyone has some solid evidence for these events occouring and how we can know what these libraries may have contained.

hum.

SqueezetheShaman · 12-08-2004, 02:07 PM

I am assuming you are talking about the library of Alexandria?

5 million books I believe. IIRC burned down in the 4th century, but there was another part of the library that burned a few hundred years earlier.

Haran · 12-08-2004, 04:58 PM

Christianity and Pagan Literature

It is amazing how often these topics come up, but then again, there are always new people who have not yet read the best sources.

hum · 12-08-2004, 05:21 PM

Haran... thanks for the link. Sorry to be going over old ground but I wanted to know what basis there was for these claims. It boggles the mind to imagine what may have been lost.....

hum

TheBigKahoona · 12-08-2004, 08:59 PM

Just to through this out there, but I thought it was normal practice of any army to burn rape and pillage anything in there sight. Or did the Xian soldiers go out of their way to do it? COuntless riches have been lost due to maurading armies burning things. Or do I just not know enough about this particular event to have an opinion.

dannyh44 · 12-09-2004, 07:46 AM

Did you hear of the horrible fire that destroyed over 100,000 books at the Univ. of Sydney library? And the sad thing was - over half the books weren't even colored-in yet!

:rolling: :rolling:

Harpuia · 12-09-2004, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigKahoona

Just to through this out there, but I thought it was normal practice of any army to burn rape and pillage anything in there sight. Or did the Xian soldiers go out of their way to do it? COuntless riches have been lost due to maurading armies burning things. Or do I just not know enough about this particular event to have an opinion.

No it sounds like a natural thing really.

But they say that the Library of Alexandria could have progressed us 1000 years into the future, meaning that it could be like the year 3004 right now (think Futurama).

But Christians are always ones to blame when it comes to destruction of intelligence.

newtype_alpha · 12-09-2004, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harpuia

But Christians are always ones to blame when it comes to destruction of intelligence.

I dont think that's a fair statement, a definately a little reaching.

On the other hand, it very well might explain what happened to Dubya's brain :huh:

Bill · 12-09-2004, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haran

Christianity and Pagan Literature

It is amazing how often these topics come up, but then again, there are always new people who have not yet read the best sources.

That is, of course, Bede's Christian apologetic site, which glosses over the role the Christians played in burning the books of the Seraphim (the remains of the Great Library of Alexandria, and the only part that is certain to have existed in the fourth century). Bede does not wish to see the Christians blamed for this great loss to our culture, so he accepts the flimsiest counter-evidence and discards the most-verified evidence in favor of Christian culpability.

Typical.

Of course, Bede's biases make his web site very far from "the best sources" available; not even one of "the best sources" available on the Internet. A reasonably-unbiased account is HERE, although in the case of the Library of Alexandria, you can't assert an opinion on that topic and remain unbiased. Thus, the aforementioned article refuses to pick a villian. I, on the other hand, am reasonably certain that the evidence proves that many books held at the Seraphim were, in fact, burned at the order of Theophilus, the Christian Patriarch of Alexandria, as even the above-article clearly states:

Quote:

The second story of the Library's destruction is more popular, thanks primarily to Edward Gibbon's "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire". But the story is also a tad more complex. Theophilus was Patriarch of Alexandria from 385 to 412 AD. During his reign the Temple of Serapis was converted into a Christian Church (probably around 391 AD) and it is likely that many documents were destroyed then. The Temple of Serapis was estimated to hold about ten percent of the overall Library of Alexandria's holdings. After his death, his nephew Cyril became Patriarch. Shortly after that, riots broke out when Hierax, a Christian monk, was publicly killed by order of Orestes the city Prefect. Orestes was said to be under the influence of Hypatia, a female philosopher and daughter of the "last member of the Library of Alexandria". Although it should be noted that some count Hypatia herself as the last Head Librarian.

Bede devotes considerable time in attacking the veracity of Gibbon's story, as is typical of those who do not wish to see the Christians accused of bearing any responsibility whatsoever. But the truth of the matter is probably best summed up by the article first referred to, above:

Quote:

So who did burn the Library of Alexandria? Unfortunately most of the writers from Plutarch (who apparently blamed Caesar) to Edward Gibbons (a staunch atheist or deist who liked very much to blame Christians and blamed Theophilus) to Bishop Gregory (who was particularly anti-Moslem, blamed Omar) all had an axe to grind and consequently must be seen as biased. Probably everyone mentioned above had some hand in destroying some part of the Library's holdings. The collection may have ebbed and flowed as some documents were destroyed and others were added. For instance, Mark Antony was supposed to have given Cleopatra over 200,000 scrolls for the Library long after Julius Caesar is accused of burning it.

In other words, the Library at Alexandria was destroyed not once, but several times, and the collection was added to in between destructions. Another view, from HERE says this:

Quote:

So who burned the Library of Alexandria? War did three times, inadvertently. Religious bigotry did twice, on purpose. We are right to grieve. Only one in ten of the major Greek classics survived. Nothing like Alexandria's library was seen again for a thousand years.

The two cases of religious bigotry referred to were the Christian destruction, under Theophilus, and the Muslim destruction, under Omar. They probably both happened, although the details of each story are a bit suspect.

== Bill

Eldarion Lathria · 12-09-2004, 08:15 PM

I wonder how many of the books in the Library of Alexandria were lost to carelessness and neglect, mice and mold. And when we speak of books burned through religious bigotry let us also speak of the books of the Aztecs, burned by Juan de Zumarraga and others, and the unspeakable crime of Diego de Landa, who burned nearly the entire literature of the Mayas.

Eldarion lathria

12-08-2004, 01:42 PM	#1
hum Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 53	Book burning I read recently (though I have no idea where !) a list of ancient libraries and the works which are believed to have been destroyed at the hands of Christians. The numbers were quite staggering. I am wondering if anyone has some solid evidence for these events occouring and how we can know what these libraries may have contained. hum.

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12-08-2004, 02:07 PM	#2
SqueezetheShaman Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Palm Bay Florida Posts: 301	I am assuming you are talking about the library of Alexandria? 5 million books I believe. IIRC burned down in the 4th century, but there was another part of the library that burned a few hundred years earlier.

12-08-2004, 04:58 PM	#3
Haran Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 1,490	Christianity and Pagan Literature It is amazing how often these topics come up, but then again, there are always new people who have not yet read the best sources.

12-08-2004, 05:21 PM	#4
hum Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 53	Haran... thanks for the link. Sorry to be going over old ground but I wanted to know what basis there was for these claims. It boggles the mind to imagine what may have been lost..... hum

12-08-2004, 08:59 PM	#5
TheBigKahoona Regular Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 171	Just to through this out there, but I thought it was normal practice of any army to burn rape and pillage anything in there sight. Or did the Xian soldiers go out of their way to do it? COuntless riches have been lost due to maurading armies burning things. Or do I just not know enough about this particular event to have an opinion.

12-09-2004, 07:46 AM	#6
dannyh44 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 30	Did you hear of the horrible fire that destroyed over 100,000 books at the Univ. of Sydney library? And the sad thing was - over half the books weren't even colored-in yet! :rolling: :rolling:

12-09-2004, 08:15 PM	#10
Eldarion Lathria Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Atlantis Posts: 2,449	I wonder how many of the books in the Library of Alexandria were lost to carelessness and neglect, mice and mold. And when we speak of books burned through religious bigotry let us also speak of the books of the Aztecs, burned by Juan de Zumarraga and others, and the unspeakable crime of Diego de Landa, who burned nearly the entire literature of the Mayas. Eldarion lathria

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