Solo

I tried to explain to Doherty the problem with the idea of depriving demons of their nature (of demons) that the grammatical construct of 1 Cr 2:8 engenders, if the rulers are to be unmasked as the demonic powers themselves:

Needless to say that I did not get anywhere with Earl. He attacked me by saying that Greek does not have "past conditional", which may is true if one wants to be highly technical. However, this changes nothing in the argument since the effect of the past aorist in 1 Cor 2:8 is exactly the same and is rendered into English as past conditional (as per attached)

Jiri

jgreen44

And maybe they did but subsequent Church builders (Eusebius, et al.) found in expedient to harmonize the Pauline epistles with the gospels.

jgreen44

I think you have solved this one. Thank you.

Solo

The trouble with that operation is that Paul did not know any demiurge. He believed that the 'lower nature' of humans expressing themselves as 'desires of the flesh' and 'sin' was preventing them from being true to God, and thereby to (re-)gain immortality. Paul thought God fixed that by sending him (Paul) to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Jiri

jgreen44

How about the Gospel of Nicodemus?

"In the Gospel of Nicodemus, Beelzebub is granted dominion over Satan by Jesus himself during his period in hell between crucifixion and resurrection. Beelzebub becomes angry with Satan because of the injustice he performed in killing Christ, who was innocent of any crime:

18:12 O Satan, prince of all evil, author of death and source of all pride, you should first have inquired into the evil crimes of Jesus of Nazareth, and then you would have found that he was guilty of no fault worthy of death.
18:13 Why did you venture, without either reason or justice, to crucify him, and have brought down to our regions a person innocent and righteous, and thereby have lost all the sinners, impious and unrighteous persons in the whole world?
18:14 While the prince of hell was speaking this way to Satan, the King of Glory said to Beelzebub, the prince of hell, Satan the prince shall be in thy power unto all ages in the stead of Adam and his children, even those that are my righteous ones"

Big Top ~ The Dweller on the Threshold

That's my web site, BTW.

dog-on

Assuming that Paul did not know any demiurge, of course...

aa5874

You mean that EVERY single Church writer and author of the Jesus story REJECTED the Pauline crucifixion in heaven story? They all used the story from an unknown author.

How strange? Only Paul got it right.

What a conspiracy theory!

It is far more reasonable to conclude "the rulers of this age" did not mean "spiritual rulers".

Jesus ordered his disciples not to tell any man, which must include "the rulers of that age".

Mark 8:27-30 - And now, the "rulers of the age" would ASK Jesus who he was.

Mark 14.61 Mark 15.2 It is clear that in the Jesus stories that the "rulers of that age" did not know Jesus was LORD and that Jesus did NOT want the "rulers of that age" to know.

jgreen44

I am not saying that "Paul got it right" only that Pauline Christianity represented a different school of thought from the Jerusalem church. Over a period of years (hundreds) the extent of those differences were downplayed, minimized until they practically ceased to exist. Why? Maybe because the Pauline writer was just too damn good to let him get away.

Maybe. But surely you agree that Christianity as we know it is simply the version that won out over the others or assimilated the others.

I don't know. Those are some pretty murky waters.

But the Markan writer and the Pauline writer/writers expressed different theological ideas. So I don't see how comparing Mark's use of the phrase "rulers of the age" to Paul's use of the phrase "rulers of the age" can give us a clear idea of what Paul meant.Agreed.

mountainman

The author of the Gospel of Nicodemus (when the Acts of Pilate are included) has the Roman Pontius Pilate declare to the Jews in no uncertain terms that Jesus performed his healings by means of the healing power invested in the ancient and highly revered Graeco-Roman healing god Asclepius.

The Acts of Pilate is known to have been authored in the fourth century, at which time the ruler of the age were still the Romans. Up until about 305 Diocletian ruled, then Constantine ruled to 337 VE and his son Constantius until 360 CE. Julian's brief rule 360-363 CE interrupted these earliest father-son "Christian Emperors".

If the Nag Hammadi codices contain material which was authored within a few decades of their publication, then the imperial Roman "Lord God Caesars and rulers of the age may be in reference to either Constantine or Constantius II (305 to 360 CE).

aa5874

But, the Church writers who wrote about Paul did NOT say that Jesus was crucified in heaven by spiritual rulers. The Church writers claimed Jesus was crucified ON EARTH under Pilate because of the JEWS at the trial.

The authors of the NT did not write that Jesus was crucified in heaven by spiritual rulers in heaven but on EARTH.

The Pauline writings are compatible with the authors of the NT and Church writings in the following:

1. Paul's Jesus was born of a woman.

Synoptic Jesus was born of a woman.

2. PAUL met an apostle called Peter in Jerusalem.

Synoptic Jesus has an apostle called Peter in Jerusalem.

3. Paul's Jesus was betrayed in the night.

Synoptic Jesus was betrayed in the night.

4. Paul's Jesus was raised on the third day.

Synoptic Jesus was raised on the third day.

5. Paul' resurrected Jesus was seen on earth by the apostles.

Synoptic JESUS' apostles saw him on earth after he was resurrected.

6. Paul's Jesus left earth and went to heaven.

Synoptic Jesus left earth and went to heaven.

7. Paul's Jesus was expected to return to earth.

Synoptic Jesus was expected to return to earth.

Paul's Jesus was the same as the Synoptic Jesus who was crucified ON earth.

But, look at your following response.


So, now it is NOT a SINGLE version that won out after all.

We have different theological ideas in the NT.

IT is no longer the winner's version.

How quick you change!