Johnny Skeptic

If I recall correctly, Paul said that he would willing to go hell as a proxy for skeptics. If Paul said that, where is it?

ukrgirl

I believe this is the passage you want:

Romans 9:1-3

1I am speaking the truth in Christ--I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit-- 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,[a] my kinsmen according to the flesh.

Johnny Skeptic

That is what I was looking for. Thanks. Would you be willing to make such a sacrifice? Do you believe that Paul would have been willing to make such a sacrifice?

ukrgirl

Would Paul have been willing to make such a sacrifice? I don't know.
Would I? Honestly, no.

luminous

I don't think that Paul even said that he was willing to.

I'd have to make sure that the translation is correct but the "could" in "For I could wish that I myself were accursed" tells us that this is just an expression akin to "I'd rather die than tell my wife that I cheated on her."

Thomas II

Yeah, like saying "This is to die for!"...

What? Do you want to die for it?

No! of course not...I'm just saying, you silly...

seebs

This is a fascinating question.

I am not sure whether I would actually do such a thing if it were possible. I am reasonably sure that it would be obligatory to do so under my moral system, however, I do not always act according to my moral beliefs. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

... On a side note, is this perhaps a GRD topic?

Doug Shaver

I don't believe Paul even mentions hell in any of the epistles that are considered undisputably his. He might not have believed in it, or at least not in the place-where-sinners-burn-forever that later Christians found so attractive.

neilgodfrey

It's a pretty flamboyant expression that certainly has the effect of getting readers' attentions and getting them to gawk in some awe at their superior apostle. I wonder if the author is rhetorically identifying himself with Christ or the interceding Spirit, which is the theme of the preceding chapter.

The passage is comparable Philippians 3:8 where Paul, like the good Stoic teacher who presented himself as the personification of the goal of Logos/Reason, identifies himself with the Christ of Philippians 2:7 -- both Paul and Christ give up all status and position to become as nothing in order to win both salvation for others and greater glory from God.

Romans is a reworking of Galatians where Christ is made the curse for the salvation of Israel (Gal.3:13), and here in Romans Paul is talking of those who "have it all" on one level but need the sacrifice of one to be made a curse for their salvation -- the Spirit (which is identified with Christ in ch.8) groans in suffering as it intercedes for salvation, with our minds not knowing how they ought to pray. Given the abundance of citations from Exodus in this section of Romans it is not surprising that this passage of Romans (9:1-3) reminds us of Moses offering a similar prayer: "Yet now, if you will forgive their sin -- and if not, blot me out of your book, I beg you..." (Exodus 32:32).

Possibly what gives Paul licence to actually express a wish to be "cursed" if that could save Israel (he chooses his words carefully: he doesn't say "go to hell" or "be terminally dead" -- though those thoughts are the rhetorical implication certainly) is his habit of identifying himself with the Christ he preaches (c.f. I Cor.11:1; Gal.2:20 etc.), of presenting himself to his audience as a model of the one he presents as their goal.


Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com