Freethought & Rationalism Archive

one allegiance · 06-04-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGD

All you have presented is personal speculation. Your statements are contradicted by all reliable Biblical scholars - whether Christian or otherwise.

Let's face facts:

1) There is no evidence of the resurrection except second-hand heresay evidence from the worse possible sources.

2) There is no 'extra-biblical' evidence for any martyrdom of the disciples.

3) It's nonsense, pure and simple.

And the Qu'ran is much better poetry.

I like your third premise..it pretty much somes up your thoughts. I'll say it again I AM NOT GOING AGAINST ANY OTHER SCHOLAR. This is all mainstream biblical and atheists scholars. They all have the same evidence but just interpret it differently. Maybe you should read about history..please I beg of you..I'm tired of such ignorance.

MadMez · 06-04-2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriarch Verlch

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a026.html

There I will give you some examples of tombs found containing dead men written about in the bible.

From the site:

Throughout Bible lands there are numerous "traditional" tombs of various Biblical personages, sometimes several for one individual! In many cases, there is no historical or archaeological evidence to back up the identification. There are various instances where there is strong, if not certain, evidence for locating the burial site of a person, or persons, named in the Bible.

Say what?

one allegiance · 06-04-2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biff the unclean

We have done just that. There is nothing to even suggest that Jesus was an actual person. ALL of his life story is based on the “lives” of various pagan gods and demigods.
There is no record of an actual person living who might have been the inspiration of the fiction Jesus as there are for King Arthur and Robin Hood.
There is nothing from the time he was supposed to have lived that mentions him. Nothing.

I don’t know who is feeding you this baloney that Jesus was a real person but if you do any actual research you will find that there is nothing... seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...f_Jesus_Christ

Hedshaker · 06-04-2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one allegiance

What is it with you people and wanting to take on historical facts. The Bible is very very historically accurate. Just b/c you can say that it isn't, maybe b/c it goes against your belief, doesn't change the fact that it is accurate. Everybody looks at the same evidence, its just funny how much people feel the need to discredit the bible.

Well if that's the case you should easily be able to back up your claims with hard contemorary, extra bibical evidence, right? Yet every time you're asked to do so you say things like.... no, do it yourself.

Come on, one allegiance. Put up or shut up. Until you do there is no evidence for a historical jesus as depicted in the Bible, none, zip. All you have to do to prove us wrong is show us the evidence.

Got any :huh:

cjack · 06-04-2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one allegiance

What is it with you people and wanting to take on historical facts. The Bible is very very historically accurate.

Not really, no. For example:

The Bible claims that a worldwide flood happened a few thousand years ago, and that one family survived on an ark with two of every living creature on board.

Yet there isn't a shred of evidence for a worldwide flood a few thousand years ago, or ever for that matter.

Furthermore, there is no evidence for the existence of any sort of vessel which could possibly hold two of every living thing upon the earth. Such a notion is patently absurd.

So the Bible really is quite lousy as a history book. There are some historical places mentioned in the book, some historical figures, and even some stories which can be verified, but "historicaly accurate"?

Not even close.

Quote:

...its just funny how much people feel the need to discredit the bible.

You know, there should be a big, flashing sign on the front page of this website. Something along the lines of:

"Warning! Many of the people who frequent this forum do not believe in God, do not accept the Bible as history, and doubt Jesus ever existed. So do not be surprised if you encounter one or even a large number of these people. Hence, the name Internet Infidels."

Hedshaker · 06-04-2006, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one allegiance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...f_Jesus_Christ

From the wiki link you provided:

Quote:

The historicity of Jesus (i.e., his existence as an actual historical figure), is accepted as a theological axiom by three world religions, Christianity, Islam and the Bahá'�* Faith, based on their respective scriptures. Nevertheless, there are no extant contemporaneous documents that make mention of Jesus

We want EXTRA-scriptural evidence. Do you have any?

aa5874 · 06-04-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriarch Verlch

http://www.probe.org/content/view/18/77

Not only do we have the eye witness account of the 11 disciples, but we have these early century writers that bore witness to the fact.

Yes and only one disciple died a natural death, the others were all murdered. Hmmm, they died poor and now some skeptics say mislead. How is that so? Have you noticed all of the leaders of anything, sacrifice themselves, preach the word, and then die in unspeakable ways?

Getting ran through with spears, heads smashed in, Peter was hung upside down on a cross in Rome, wasn't he?

Hardly something you would expect from men that were eye witnesses of a lie.

People have died for all sorts of reasons. Based on your reasoning, then it is ok to steal, because because two theives were crucified for stealing and one went to heaven. And I hope you have taken into account Jim Jones and David Koresh, hardly something you would expect from men that were eye witnesses of a lie.

All the actions of the so-called Jesus in the Christian Bible point to deception, fraud and sorcery. I will show you, Jesus is claimed to cast out demons from two men, the demons then left the men and entered pigs. The pigs then ran into the sea and perished.

My friend, can you drown a ghost? Can you break the neck of a ghost? The fabricaters of Jesus messed up big time, their script has a flaw. By the way, can you kill a ghost?

Let's continue, Jesus, the master of witchcraft/ sorcery. Mark ch9, a little boy is deaf and dumb, Jesus claims he has an unclean dumb and deaf spirit. Hogwash. Jesus is a fraud. There are no such spirits. Ask any medical doctor. Speech impediment and hearing problems are not spiritual. Jesus is a 'Quack'. Jesus died for his own sins ( witchcraft, sorcery and magic).

The acts of Jesus has contributed to the mis-diagnosis of maladies, causing untold human suffering. People were categorised as demonic, filled with unclean spirits and diabolic entities, when a good physician was all that was needed.

The Christian Bible is filled with these acts of sorcery done by Jesus, and if he was indeed crucified, then he deserved to die for his sins.

RGD · 06-04-2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by one allegiance

I like your third premise..it pretty much somes up your thoughts. I'll say it again I AM NOT GOING AGAINST ANY OTHER SCHOLAR. This is all mainstream biblical and atheists scholars. They all have the same evidence but just interpret it differently. Maybe you should read about history..please I beg of you..I'm tired of such ignorance.

I have read a great deal of history of the period. There is no evidence that the disciples were martyred except the Bible.

And the Bible was not written by reliable individuals. Cite me a single mainstream scholar to support your position. And I do mean mainstream - there are cranks, kooks, and deluded partisans in this field.

one allegiance · 06-04-2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedshaker

From the wiki link you provided:

We want EXTRA-scriptural evidence. Do you have any?

That Jesus was a real person? If thats the case maybe you should read a little bit more on that site about the people who STUDY Jesus's life for a living.

show_no_mercy · 06-04-2006, 03:00 PM

It never ceases to amaze me how people can claim that Jesus' disciples wrote the 4 gospel accounts. For one, the disciples were illiterate and spoke aramaic - how the hell would they suddenly learn greek AND learn how to write?

Second, all 4 gospel accounts are written in third person. How the hell can a third person writing be considered "eyewitness"?

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06-04-2006, 03:00 PM	#70
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	It never ceases to amaze me how people can claim that Jesus' disciples wrote the 4 gospel accounts. For one, the disciples were illiterate and spoke aramaic - how the hell would they suddenly learn greek AND learn how to write? Second, all 4 gospel accounts are written in third person. How the hell can a third person writing be considered "eyewitness"?

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