Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 01-09-2009, 06:21 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/more_or_less/

Middle item on this 9 Jan - not sure if on bbci yet - was about the Babylonians and Maths - interviewed University of Cambridge lecturer on history of maths.

She stated that the need to write down numbers probably led to the invention of writing, and discussed the huge effects the Babylonians had - huge and very small numbers, tables, cross checking, sixty, 360...

But the people doing this were priests - lamenters would want to know dates of eclipses because the gods sent them as omens.

They were studying the heavens as a form of insurance. They soon worked out the twenty eight day pattern of the moon, and saw this as especially inauspicious, as were the quarters of this - every seven days.

On these very unlucky days the best thing to do would be to avoid the wrath of the gods by not doing anything and stay in bed.

The result? Not being able to buy alcohol in various places, going to church to placate the gods on the seventh day etc.

It is impressive how religion and the solar calendars are so intwined - Islam is fascinating case study of this.

So blame the Babylonian priest mathematicians for Judaism, Xianity and Islam and their fetishes on words as well as 360 degree tables, Microsoft Excel and 24 hour days!

semiopen · 01-09-2009, 07:50 AM

This link discusses the origin of the senen day week.

http://www.wfu.edu/~moran/planets_y_powers.html

I've seen it suggested this could have been as early as 2350 BCE and involved Ur which was Abraham's home town.

The Sefer Yetzirah (Book of Creatrion), sometimes said to come from Abraham by fundamentalist Jews, also suggests the seven days relate to the seven visible planets (including the sun and moon).

This has important iomplications with how we evaluate the creation myth in Genesis of course.

Clivedurdle · 01-09-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Babylonian Numbers
Babylon: Myth and Reality is the theme of one of a British Museum special exhibition which runs until 15th March.

A Babylonian mathematical tablet

The ancient civilization is famed for the Tower of Babel, the Hanging Gardens and Belshazzar's Feast - but also for the great advances it made in mathematics.
The ability to write large numbers, the way we measure time, the number of degrees in a circle and the 7 day week - we apparently owe much to Babylonian mathematics.
To find out more, Tim Harford visits the British Museum's Babylon exhibition and talks to Eleanor Robson of Cambridge University's Department of History and Philosophy of Science.

(BBC above)

http://www.britishmuseum.org/whats_o..._overview.aspx

http://www.hps.cam.ac.uk/dept/robson.html

andrewcriddle · 01-09-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

The Sefer Yetzirah (Book of Creatrion), sometimes said to come from Abraham by fundamentalist Jews, also suggests the seven days relate to the seven visible planets (including the sun and moon).

The sefer yetzirah is a work of the rabbinic period probably c 500 CE.
It is not evidence for the origin of the Sabbath.

Andrew Criddle

Analyst · 01-10-2009, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The sefer yetzirah is a work of the rabbinic period probably c 500 CE. It is not evidence for the origin of the Sabbath.

Andrew Criddle

A 28 day moon cycle is conveniently divisible into quarters. Most 'old' measurements are divisible by 2 or powers of 2, or sometimes 3 as well. The notion of 10 as a divisor is not 'natural'.

andrewcriddle · 01-10-2009, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Analyst

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The sefer yetzirah is a work of the rabbinic period probably c 500 CE. It is not evidence for the origin of the Sabbath.

Andrew Criddle

A 28 day moon cycle is conveniently divisible into quarters. Most 'old' measurements are divisible by 2 or powers of 2, or sometimes 3 as well. The notion of 10 as a divisor is not 'natural'.

10 is important in pythagorean number mysticism which is (directly or indirectly) one of the influences on the sefer yetzirah.

Some scholars would date the sefer yetzirah in the early CE period roughly contemporary with the Mishnah. However I tend to regard it as influenced by neo-platonic ideas. If so this requires a rather later date.

See baeck for the argument that the sefer yetzirah was influenced, directly or indirectly, by the neo-Platonic philosopher Proclus.

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 01-10-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

10 is important in pythagorean number mysticism

The ingrained resistance of the British to metrication isn't at root a religious battle is it?:devil1:

Analyst · 01-10-2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

10 is important in pythagorean number mysticism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

The ingrained resistance of the British to metrication isn't at root a religious battle is it?:devil1:

America is the only country in the world, AFAIK, to reject metrication almost completely. Even in Canada, where many goods are priced by the pound, your receipt shows metric only. The UK has a half assed imperial system for driving but is generally metric.

Clivedurdle · 01-10-2009, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Metric 'martyrs' win fight to save imperial measures

Traders who sell food using imperial measures are to escape prosecution after the Government backed down.

By David Barrett and David Harrison
Last Updated: 5:13PM BST 18 Oct 2008
Comments 19 | Comment on this article

Imperial versus metric: Victory for 'metric martyrs' as EU surrenders

Councils will be banned from taking the so-called "metric martyrs" to court for "essentially minor offences" such as selling goods weighed in pounds and ounces.
The decision is believed to have been prompted by the case of Janet Devers, the east London market trader who had to pay nearly £5,000 in costs and received a criminal record earlier this month after a prosecution brought by Hackney council.
John Denham, the Innovation Secretary, will issue guidelines within months that prevent local authorities taking traders to court. He said: "It is hard to see how it is in the public interest, or in the interests of consumers, to prosecute small traders who have committed what are essentially minor offences."
Although metric measurements have been taught in British schools since the 1970s, many people are still more familiar with the old-style measures, particularly when it comes to purchasing food.
Tens of thousands of market traders across the country risk prosecution on a daily basis by serving customers using imperial measures. The imperial system is prevalent in other industries such as clothing, motoring and pubs, where inches, miles and pints are commonly used....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...-measures.html

It is a religious dispute - whether you want to stay with Babylonian or Pythagorean superstitions!

14 or 10.

Clivedurdle · 01-10-2009, 11:24 AM

Otherwise known as the Greeks or the Persians! Marathon!

01-09-2009, 06:21 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The Babylonians and the Sabbath http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/more_or_less/ Middle item on this 9 Jan - not sure if on bbci yet - was about the Babylonians and Maths - interviewed University of Cambridge lecturer on history of maths. She stated that the need to write down numbers probably led to the invention of writing, and discussed the huge effects the Babylonians had - huge and very small numbers, tables, cross checking, sixty, 360... But the people doing this were priests - lamenters would want to know dates of eclipses because the gods sent them as omens. They were studying the heavens as a form of insurance. They soon worked out the twenty eight day pattern of the moon, and saw this as especially inauspicious, as were the quarters of this - every seven days. On these very unlucky days the best thing to do would be to avoid the wrath of the gods by not doing anything and stay in bed. The result? Not being able to buy alcohol in various places, going to church to placate the gods on the seventh day etc. It is impressive how religion and the solar calendars are so intwined - Islam is fascinating case study of this. So blame the Babylonian priest mathematicians for Judaism, Xianity and Islam and their fetishes on words as well as 360 degree tables, Microsoft Excel and 24 hour days!

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01-09-2009, 07:50 AM	#2
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	This link discusses the origin of the senen day week. http://www.wfu.edu/~moran/planets_y_powers.html I've seen it suggested this could have been as early as 2350 BCE and involved Ur which was Abraham's home town. The Sefer Yetzirah (Book of Creatrion), sometimes said to come from Abraham by fundamentalist Jews, also suggests the seven days relate to the seven visible planets (including the sun and moon). This has important iomplications with how we evaluate the creation myth in Genesis of course.

01-10-2009, 11:24 AM	#10
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Otherwise known as the Greeks or the Persians! Marathon!

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