Sheshonq

You're suffering from the confusion caused by the King James Version. Briefly, the meaning of 'nation' has changed since 1611.

In the KJV text, the word "nation" does not mean "political entity in a geographic area, defined by borders, a flag and an embassy." It means "distinctive population".

By that definition, Israel was a nation before, during and after the so-called Babylonian Exile. The modern country of Israel has nothing to do with the "nation of Israel", since most members of that nation don't live inside the country of the same name.

Sheshonq

Except when they didn't - like right now, as most Jews reside outside of Israel.
There is no evidence that Hebrews were ever in Egypt.

However, the Assyrians did not disperse the Jews, and the Babylonians only took the elite class back with them to Babylon - the majority of Jews remained in Palestine.

spin

I always love this joke.

You are trying to make literary traditions into history. That's pretty silly.

Great literary device. More pathos. More stupidity.

One thing you should have learnt is that one understands through experiencing. What you propose is the antithesis and is therefore unrepresentative of reality.

There is no logical connection at all between these two sentences. You've left out the statement of logical relationship between them.

It also presupposes a whacky christian misunderstanding of the messiah.

OK, we already saw that you are a christian and so you believe all that stuff.

Look at the empty half of the glass: AIDS, climate destruction, species extinction, star death. Lovely universe. Great sign.

But then christians are told that this world is only transient and that a better one is on the way. You shouldn't expect much of a sign in a temporary universe. But don't let me stop you at feeling all warm and fuzzy inside because of the full half of the glass.

I prefer to see the whole glass.


spin

Sheshonq

If you have any evidence of these, go ahead and present it.

Only interested in evidence here; deleting the rest of your preaching.

arnoldo

Around two thousand years ago the Jewish people were literally expecting that the Kingdom of Israel would be restored, this did not happen, instead the Romans conquered Israel. Miraculously, Israel returned to their homeland after millions of Jews were slaughtered during WWII, this is a fact. There is no contradiction whatsoever if you realize we are living in "the time of the gentiles" and this is why Israel is not physically occupying all of their land. In addition please note that God's promises to Abraham also carried a warning to nations which would seek to harm Israel,ie, "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse (Gen 12:3)" Various nations throughout history who have atacked Israel have proved this true including Egypt, Assyria, Syria, Babylon, the Medes and the Persians, the Grecian Empire,the Roman Empire,and more recently Spain, Germany, and Russia. In contrast the United States seems to have been under a blessing due to it's support for Israel but this alliance seems to be weakening.

Sheshonq

What does any of this have to do with the requests for evidence you were asked to provide?

Preaching is not evidence. Care to try again?

Johnny Skeptic

Please stay on topic. In the opening post, sugarhitman falsely claimed that Israel has been restored. Genesis 17:8 says that God promised to give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of ancient Canaan as an EVERLASTING covenant. The partition of Palestine failed on both counts. Please tell us how you believe the writer of Genesis 17:8 intended for his audience to interpret that verse.

If you are going to quote the Bible, you will not be able to get away with cherry-picking. Even one lie discredits the entire Bible. Genesis 17:8 is the foundational Scripture for all subsequent Scriptures about Jewish history. Unless you can reasonably interpret it in ways that helps your arguments, you lose. I will keep mentioning Genesis 17:8 unless you provide reasonable explains for what it means that help your arguments.

At any rate, even if God has power, so what? Are you are not aware that might does not make right? The validity of the historical record is only one part of reasonable grounds for a person to become a Christian. The issue of God's character is equally important. If God helped Abraham and his group to drive the Canaanites out of their homeland, that was wrong.

Until you reply to these arguments, every time that you make a post I will repost this post and refuse to reply to your arguments. If I have to repost these arguments a thousand times, I will do so. Why should I reply to your arguments when you refuse to reply to mine. What are you afraid of? Are you not aware that this is the Internet Infidels Discussions Board.

IN CASE YOU DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I SAID, UNTIL YOU REPLY TO THESE ARGUMENTS, WHENEVER YOU MAKE A POST I WILL REPOST THIS POST AND REFUSE TO REPLY TO ANYTHING THAT YOU SAY, AND I WILL REPOST THESE ARGUMENTS A THOUSANDS TIMES IF I HAVE TO. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE ME, KEEP REFUSING TO REPLY TO MY POSTS AND KEEP A RECORD OF HOW MANY TIMES I REPOST THIS POST AND REFUSE TO REPLY TO YOUR POSTS.

You do not discuss anything. All that you do is proselytize and quote Scripture. Well, two can play that game. As long as you refuse to directly reply to my posts, I will refuse to directly reply to your posts, and no actual discussions will take place. If that is what you want, that is certainly fine with me.

I encourage other skeptics to use my approach and refuse to directly reply to anything that arnoldo and sugarhitman say until they start directly replying to our posts. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

arnoldo

Yes, God promised Abraham the land but due to disobedience the Jewish people frequently were forced to leave the land as history bear witness. The fact remains that Israel never fully inhabited all of the land promised to Abraham, thus it continues that Gen 17:8 is prophetic. The Bible makes it very clear that once the Messiah arrives Israel will fully inherit the land promised to Abraham and will never be uprooted again.

Sheshonq

Nope. Still not evidence for your claims.

You *do* understand that repeating back your personal religious doctrine will never qualify as evidence.

You *do* understand that, right?

Otherwise, this is going to be a really, really short discussion.

arnoldo

If your argument is to continually quote Genesis 17:8 "everlasting" then you should know the correct word for the term is the following:

Forever means "age lasting" meaning the promise would never end. The fact remains that the Jews are presently in their homeland (exactly where they belong) and pending their promise for the entire land that belongs to them.