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Toto · 10-03-2010, 09:36 PM

Neil Godfrey on Rom 10: How shall they hear about Jesus unless from a Christian preacher?

Derec · 10-03-2010, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gupwalla

Now, how he came by his Y-chromosome, without which he could not have developed into a male, is left as an exercise to the reader.

Naughtius Maximus?
But really, if God created humans from scratch (+ some dust) don't you think he could have created a Y chromosome as well?
I do not see this as a problem (not that I buy the story, but if you do buy the story the creation of the Y-chromosome is not a problem for it).

andrewcriddle · 10-04-2010, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

However Paul a little later in Romans 10 does seem to be saying that the Jews have heard the message and culpably rejected it. ...

This would not be the first time that Paul contradicts Paul.

But what message did the Jews hear? Isaiah and Moses and Psalm 19, with an unspecified bow to "the word of Christ" thrown in. (Paul does not seem to distinguish between the Hebrew Scriptures and the word of Christ.)

I do not get the impression from this that the Jews knew anything about Jesus before some Christian preached about him.

From Paul's earlier reference in Romans 10

Quote:

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

the message seems to involve believing that Jesus is the resurrected Messiah. It almost certainly means more than the mere belief that a controversial figure called Jesus has been killed by the authorities. It seems likely that this message would first reach Jews in Judea by hearing some Christian preaching it. (FWIW the Book of Acts certainly gives this impression.)

Andrew Criddle

spin · 10-04-2010, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

From Paul's earlier reference in Romans 10

Quote:

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

the message seems to involve believing that Jesus is the resurrected Messiah. It almost certainly means more than the mere belief that a controversial figure called Jesus has been killed by the authorities. It seems likely that this message would first reach Jews in Judea by hearing some Christian preaching it.

You seem to treat Paul's theology as something more than it is. The point of the sacrifice is that the offering must..., well, you know, die. Yet, if it just ended with him dying, what future would there be??

My view is that it seems only reasonable for Paul and his followers to believe in the reality of Jesus' death and resurrection. If they weren't real, what would be the value of the sacrifice?

Theology isn't a study of reality. It is a web of belief reified.

spin

andrewcriddle · 10-04-2010, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

From Paul's earlier reference in Romans 10 the message seems to involve believing that Jesus is the resurrected Messiah. It almost certainly means more than the mere belief that a controversial figure called Jesus has been killed by the authorities. It seems likely that this message would first reach Jews in Judea by hearing some Christian preaching it.

You seem to treat Paul's theology as something more than it is. The point of the sacrifice is that the offering must..., well, you know, die. Yet, if it just ended with him dying, what future would there be??

My view is that it seems only reasonable for Paul and his followers to believe in the reality of Jesus' death and resurrection. If they weren't real, what would be the value of the sacrifice?

I'm not sure whether we are disagreeing here.

What this part of a maybe confused thread is discussing is an argument something like this.

I/ If Paul's gospel is about a Jesus crucified in Jerusalem under Pontius Pilate, then Jews in Judea could have known about this without being told by a Christian.
II/ However Paul emphasises [Romans 10] the necessity of people being told about the Gospel.
III/ Therefore Paul's gospel is not about a Jesus crucified in Jerusalem under Pontius Pilate.

I'm suggesting this is misunderstanding what Paul is really saying in Romans 10.

Andrew Criddle

Doug Shaver · 10-04-2010, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gupwalla

Now, how he came by his Y-chromosome, without which he could not have developed into a male, is left as an exercise to the reader.

It isn't much of an exercise. It took a miracle to make a virgin pregnant. I don't see why the same miracle could not have included manipulation of the zygote's chromosomes to make the child become whatever God wanted it to become.

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10-03-2010, 09:36 PM	#91
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Neil Godfrey on Rom 10: How shall they hear about Jesus unless from a Christian preacher?

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