GakuseiDon

Richard, I reviewed "The God Who Wasn't There" movie( link here) and used comments from you, I hope not inappropriately.

To quote from my review:
I was wondering whether Brian Flemming ran the movie by you before releasing it? It doesn't seem that way to me, because I'm sure you would have pointed out the problems with the Jesus copycat thesis that he uses in the first part of his movie, and especially "Beddru", "Devatat", etc.

Also, what did you think of the movie yourself?

sunspark

I'm curious about this too.

Toto

If you want Carrier's answer, you will need to email him and alert him to the existence of this thread.

GakuseiDon

Thanks Toto, I just emailed him about this thread.

Roland

I would be very interested in the answer as well. I watched the movie and was very disappointed when I found all that Graves material in there as well. It makes the whole movie so easy to dismiss after that.

Richbee

Yawn.

Quote:

- snip - Let’s look at a few more of Flemming’s claims about Paul. “He never quotes anything that Jesus is supposed to have said.” This is easily debunked. In 1 Cor 11:24, Paul writes of Jesus that, “when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” Paul is obviously aware of the Jesus tradition known by the Evangelists (Mark 14:22; Matt 26:26; Luke 22:19). As noted above, there are also a number of passages where Paul shows he is familiar with the sayings of Jesus (1 Cor 7:10; 9:14; 11:1, 2, 20-25; 2 Cor 5:16). Paul is familiar with Pilate and John the Baptist in his speech in Acts 13:25, 28. Colin Hemer argues that the speeches in Acts are probably summaries of what certain apostles taught on a specific occasion[10] as does Craig Keener in his forthcoming commentary on Acts. He also knows that Jesus had a brother, indeed several, which places the historical Jesus within Paul’s generation (Gal 1:19; 1 Cor 9:5). Flemming accepts Doherty’s explanation that the term “brother of the Lord” probably referred to a specific group of Christians who named themselves “brothers of the Lord.” However, no evidence is provided in support of this thesis and it does not fit well with other reports that Jesus had brothers (Matt 12:46-50; cf. Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21; Matt 13:55-57; John 2:12; 7:3-11; Acts 1:13-14). - snip - Conclusion This film is a rehashing of the same hypercritical skepticism that has failed to convince even most skeptical scholars for decades. The Jesus mythers wonder why no scholars want to interact with their work. It is because little new material in terms of data or arguments is being presented in their case, a case that has been decisively refuted time and again. It is far weaker than the conspiracy theory concerning who shot Kennedy. As mentioned earlier, there comes a time when conspiracy theorists no longer command an audience when they rehash the same old arguments. The few new arguments presented in this DVD are unconvincing. Bultmann and others had no respect for the arguments of Jesus mythers and neither should we. These arguments strain data and historical method to the extent that scholarly discussion with Jesus mythers becomes impossible.

Rubbish Reviewed by Mike Licona

lpetrich

I didn't notice the Kersey Graves parts of the movie, and if one wishes to dismiss it because of those parts, then why not also dismiss the Bible because of discrepancies that are at least as bad?

Fortunately, however, most of the movie was independent of KG and his thesis.

Toto

I don't recall that he repeated the specifics of things that Graves said that have been discredited. He did make some brief allusions to the usual copycat arguments, not all of which are bogus, but that wasn't the core of his thesis.

Geetarmoore

BS! Paul PLAINLY STATES that his information for the Eucharist came directly from the lord (one of his mystic 'visions', no doubt), NOT from any pre-existing apostolic tradition...

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took abread:


These are not sayings of Christ, let alone Gospel paralleled 'sayings of Christ'. Presenting them as such is fraudulent.

Paul didn't write Acts, and it was written long after his death. He couldn't refute anything in it if he wanted to, being dead and all. This is totally bogus.

More bad arguments from the HJ'ers.

Richard Carrier

No, he didn't. But I didn't expect him to. He was in LA, I'm nearer San Francisco, so such a prescreening wouldn't have been financially feasible. Nor did he pay me to research his movie, as he would have had to do. I can't afford to engage hours of work for free, though I gave him a lengthy one-shot interview for free, which is a courtesy I extend to all members of the press and professional documentarians. However, I did correct several blatant errors between the premiere (which he held in SF so I was able to attend) and the general release, and sent him a white paper on the remaining elements of his film that were what I called "questionable" but not blatantly false. More on that below.

First two general points:

(1) There may well be several things in that movie I don't agree with. It should never be expected that everyone interviewed for a documentary agrees with everything else in that documentary. As long as when I am quoted my views are not misrepresented, and nothing grossly false is surrounding it, I have no quarrel with what a documentarian does--the same as for a journalist writing an article, for example, that quotes or cites something I've said or argued. I don't think the Flemming film says anything grossly false. Though it does say things I would take issue with or even argue against, none of those things are attributed to me.

(2) On the general point of whether I support or oppose the copycat thesis, in general I do not oppose it, though I argue against sloppy or incorrect versions of it. I now believe it is certain that over the course of the 1st century, Christian doctrine deliberately emulated (and deliberately altered) the myths of comparable pagan heroes (most clearly Romulus and Osiris) in the same way it deliberately emulated the myths of comparable Jewish heroes (most clearly Moses and Elijah) and that this accounts for a lot of significant material in the gospels. That in itself, however, does not constitute a sufficiently valid argument for ahistoricity. I believe other evidence can be adduced that confirms ahistoricity as the most probable explanation of the facts, but that's another story.

Now to particulars...


Neither of those were ever spoken of in the film--they (and almost all other gods mentioned) appear solely in a long list that scrolls by the screen at one point, and only as wallpaper (not even as an actual list), behind a list of "elements" that "some previous saviors" purportedly had attributed to them. I didn't research his two lists (the actual list of elements, or the wallpapered list of gods behind it), largely because he didn't connect any elements to any gods anyway (the two lists run independently of each other, and in opposite directions, implying no particular links between any one god and any one element) so I have no idea how I could really check any of those claims.

Some exceptions aside, most of the gods in that background list certainly pre-date Christianity, and most of those elements could arguably have been attributed to one or another of them at some point in history (I certainly don't know anyone who has thoroughly checked all the extant sources for all the listed gods for all the listed elements). But for me the interesting questions are: were those elements attached to those gods before or after being influenced by Christianity, and if before, did the Christians get the idea from there or is this a coincidence or evidence of mutual derivation from an even earlier source?

Though the film implies the Christians might have borrowed these elements, that is not the same thing as asserting that they did, and forgetting this distinction is a common methodological mistake made by critics. For example, we cannot establish that an Incarnation-Eucharist was an element of Mithraism before Christianity, therefore we can't assert that Christianity borrowed this from Mithraism. However, we also can't assert that Mithraism borrowed it from Christianity. There is a difference between saying the borrowing definitely went one way or the other, and saying the borrowing could have gone one way or the other, or that it could reflect mutual borrowing from an earlier third source, i.e. a third party origin influencing simultaneously and separately both Christianity and any given pagan cult--a good example of which, IMO, is how the same "third day" chronology got into both Christianity and Osiris cult: I believe it derives from earlier, pervasive, pre-Jewish ANE concepts about death.

Thus, it remains possible that some elements of Mithraism that we know from late sources were indeed present in pre-Christian Mithraism, and thus it remains possible that some of those elements did inspire their incorporation into early Christianity. Simply because we cannot assert that they did doesn't mean we can assert that they didn't. It's thus a theoretical possibility that one must be aware of, and a list that makes one aware of it is no sin. Although I personally do not believe this is what happened, I concede a scholar could debate the matter with me, so I'm not going to declare certainty on this subject or tell a documentarian it's rubbish. It's his prerogative to include possible links in a list of possible links. After all, Flemming does not entitle the list "Things Christians Borrowed."

Of course, it is also the prerogative of critics to research and assess things like the entries on his list, and move them from Flemming's list to their own lists of "likely" or "unlikely" influences, and I have no quarrel with anyone doing that, either, especially when they present useful research that would cost the rest of us time and difficulty to have collected on our own. And your review is one such example. Though I don't agree with everything you argue in it, and I think a lot more research is needed on the two "lists" in the movie, I believe your review contains a lot of useful correctives--if only preachers were providing parishioners with this stuff!

Likewise, though I believe the Incarnation-Eucharist element of Christianity is a manifestly Jewish concept and thus does not require any pagan precedent, I am not so certain of this that I would say such a theory shouldn't even be proposed or explored. Although the idea, for example, of grain as Demeter's flesh and wine as Bacchus' blood was probably pre-Christian, from my own esoteric research I believe the Christians were developing a different concept of corporate identity that derives from Jewish sacrifice ideology, not pagan metaphor. But it would take an hour just to explain all the nuances here on camera, and this wasn't even the point of the film. All Flemming had time to accomplish was to point out the possibility of precedents existing--which priests are not telling their flocks about, not even to competently debunk them, which was the actual thesis of this part of the film (the other part being the use of Christ as a tool of contemporary madness, oppression, and folly).

This brings me to the white paper I sent Flemming after the premiere. First the context:

At that event, Brian and I and my friend David Fitzgerald (who is writing a book on the Jesus myth theory) took the stage for audience questions. Brian was asked whether any scholars will dispute elements of the film, and among other things, he pointed out to the audience that even I, the guy standing right next to him, was a scholar who disputed some elements of the film. The question thus turned to me as to what, and I raised some examples (though at the time I had barely read any of the wallpapered list of gods--to me it was hardly visible). I then explained that though there were disputable elements, any argument that started about them would not end well for the Christian apologist, so I saw this as a good way to get debate started and more people aware of the issues.

Then I mentioned I would write up a more thorough fact-checking assessment for Brian as soon as the final DVD release was produced and I had a copy. And that's what I did (though only for the ancient history material in the film). Earlier I sent him some corrections that were made even before the general DVD release, so what follows only pertains to the DVD available now (Brian is preparing a "second edition" of the film, though I don't know what changes he plans to make).

Here is what I sent him:

Critical Notes on the Movie The God Who Wasn't There Researched and Compiled by Richard C. Carrier in 2005.

(1) If he "had" been on earth he would not be a priest: an ei...an phrase using the imperfect tense is always a present contrafactual (a past contrafactual would call for the aorist). In other words: "So, then, if he were on earth, he would not be a priest..." is the only correct translation. This is consistent with both interpretations, however, since present contrafactuals can imply a past-to-present contrafactual, so Doherty's interpretation is still more plausible in context (and I do believe there are some genuine translations on the market that use "had been").

(2) Did Jesus Order His Enemies Killed in Luke 19:27? Yes and no. It is not a command, but a promise. Jesus says Zacchaeus (19:8-10) will be saved because he gives his money to the poor and cheats no one, "For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost." Then:

Then one servant who did not earn interest on what he was given is cast into darkness at the king's command, at which the "king" (obviously meaning Jesus) says:

The implication is clearly that when he returns Jesus intends to kill those who reject him.

(3) Gospels "Clearly Derive from Mark": Some scholars dispute whether John is "clearly" derived from Mark, but many scholars do believe it does derive from Mark indirectly (possibly through Luke--as I believe is the case, and offer some reasons why in my chapter on "The Spiritual Body" in the book The Empty Tomb). Moreover, all scholars agree John was written later than Mark (even the ancient Christians were agreed about this).

(4) Jesus Under King Jannaeus (104-78 BC)? Some did believe that. b.Talmud, Sanhedrin folio 107 face b contains several references to Jesus existing at this time as a student of Rabbi Joshua ben Perahyah (repeated in Sotah 43a). Jesus is then more clearly discussed in b.Talmud, Sanhedrin folio 43a, but no datable context is given. The tradition of an early Jesus was also known to Epiphanius as a belief held by some early Jewish Christians:

This quote appears in his section that discusses the Christian sect called the "Nazoraeans, who confess that Christ Jesus is Son of God, but all of whose customs are in accordance with the Law," which would suggest early Jewish Christians--in fact, this would appear to be a remnant of the pre-Pauline sect at Jerusalem, as even Acts attests the original Christians were called Nazareans, and Galatians attests that it was the Jerusalem sect under Peter and James that continued to abide by Jewish law, and only Paul who came up with the innovation of doing away with that.

(5) Jesus Executed by Herod: Price himself is vague, but the graphics depict him as speaking of Herod the Great. Actually, the Gospel of Peter says "Herod the King" which could mean Herod Antipas who was a contemporary of Pilate, even though he was not a king (instead he was a tetrarch--he was even deposed by Caligula when he asked for the title of king). Normally "Herod the King" would denote Herod the Great, but the Gospel of Peter still has Pilate in the picture, so this could simply have been a mistake by the Gospel's author (not knowing the correct title for Antipas). The discrepancy Price wanted to convey, I think, was that the Gospel of Peter has Herod execute Jesus rather than Pilate, which indeed is a completely different story than we get in the Gospels, even if this was Antipas and thus the same historical period. Nevertheless, it is still possible that the "error" this author made was in thinking Herod the Great and Pilate were contemporaries, so the graphic is not completely out of order. And such a thought would explain why Herod was the one doing the executing, since the land then was not yet under Roman law, even though Roman procurators (like Pilate) would still have been there at that time attending to Caesar's property and cash.

(6) "Paul never heard of" the Last Supper: That is perhaps misleading. Paul has heard of it, and describes it in 1 Cor. 11:23-26, but he says he "received" this story "from the Lord" which he elsewhere says was a revelation (Gal. 1:11-12; Epj. 3:3; Rom. 16:25; 2 Cor. 12:1, 12:7). So this is a somewhat problematic part of the narrative. Nevertheless, one can honestly say Paul never appears to have heard of a historical event of a last supper taking place in Jerusalem with, e.g., Peter and Judas in attendance. Rather, he only appears to have heard of a revealed event. In fact, Paul does not mention Jesus or anyone actually eating or drinking anything--all Jesus does, in Paul's words, is break bread and lift a cup and command that there be eating and drinking, to symbolize his communal presence among his believers. And the fact that the bread and wine represented his body and blood supports (though does not prove) the thesis that he had no other body or blood on earth. Doherty also notes that the Greek does not exactly say "in the night he was betrayed" (1 Cor. 11:23) but "in the night he was delivered up" which can mean betrayed or handed over to the demons of the air to be crucified, so this can still be a reference to the visions of the celestial Christ; and when Jesus here says "until he comes" and not "until he comes again," this supports (but does not prove) the view that he had not come to earth yet.

(7) "Paul never quotes anything Jesus is supposed to have said": As above, Paul does quote "the Lord" several times (not just in that one case), but, again as noted above, this always appears to be from revelation, not tradition, and what he does quote rarely coincides with what we have in the Gospels, nor does it contain anything distinctive of the supposedly historical discourse of Jesus (for example, Paul never quotes a parable or any statement that refers to anyone by name or definitely contains historical context, etc.) nor any reference to a human tradition by which Paul learned it (e.g. he never says "Peter told me Jesus once said...").

(8) "Paul never heard of" Jesus appearing before Pilate and "never mentions Pontius Pilate": One can debate this, but the debate would not look good for the Christian apologist. 1 Timothy 6:13 does say "Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate." But scholars disagree whether 1 Tim. was actually written by Paul. In fact, most scholars conclude it was not, but was written after him--many scholars arguing for a date as late as the dawn of the second century. Furthermore, the phrase "testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate" does not match the Gospels (where Jesus gives no testimony to Pilate at all, much less witness the gospel to him). Instead, the phrase can mean that Jesus delivered his revelation during the administration of Pontius Pilate. From the Greek, the verb martyreô is to give evidence or testimony and a kalên homologia is a "beautiful agreement," in other words a testament or covenant--and in fact in the preceding verse this is exactly what a new Christian convert does "before many witnesses" (1 Tim. 6:12), and the "Apostle and High Priest" of the Christian homologia is Jesus (Heb. 3:1), and we are exhorted to keep this agreement (Heb. 4:14, 10:23). Thus, this phrase does not appear to be speaking about any testimony Jesus gave to Pilate, but of the fact that Jesus revealed this covenant to Christians under Pilate (epi with genitive can mean either "in the time of" or "in the presence of").

(9) "Paul doesn't believe that Jesus was ever a human being--he's not even aware of the idea": This depends on what one means by "human being." Paul does call Jesus a "man" (Rom. 5:15; also: Ps.-Paul's 1 Tim. 2:5) and says he "came into being from the seed of David" and "from a woman" (Rom. 1:3 and Gal 4:4), but Paul also says Jesus was "no man" (Gal. 1:1) and that in fact he came into being as a "spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45; also: Ps.-Paul's Heb. 8:2). There are other passages that suggest Paul had in mind a celestial being who either became flesh or took on the "likeness" of flesh, so whether Paul had "heard" of the idea of Jesus being a human being in the sense of living on earth is still debatable, but if you take "human being" to mean merely "incarnated in a body of flesh" in the heavens, then Paul certainly did hear of Jesus being a human being in that obscure sense, which does seem to stretch the meaning of the phrase "human being" a bit much.

(10) Sanhedrin Holding Court on Passover Eve: This was definitely illegal and unnecessary. Mishnah, Sanhedrin 4.1k says a conviction can only be given a day after the trial in capital cases (also 5.5a), and for this reason it specifically says no trial of a capital case can occur on the eve of a Sabbath or a Festival (because court cannot go back in session on such a day). Likewise, 4.1j explicitly says that capital cases can only be tried during the day (in explicit contrast with property cases which must begin during the day but can end at night). There is no intelligible reason why these procedures would have been violated for Jesus.

(11) First Easter in 2400 B.C.: The date I imagine is approximate, and I think must refer to the dawn of the resurrection cult of Inanna and Tammuz, wherein a resurrection of either or both was celebrated at the Spring Equinox (precisely the same calendar date as Passover and Easter) as an agricultural ritual for the death and resurrection of life in the grain harvest. Likewise, the very name "Easter" derives from the Germanic pagan ritual of the same function, where the Goddess Eostra gave a rabbit the power to lay eggs once a year to symbolize this agricultural resurrection of life. But the year seems a bit arbitrary.

The Raglan scoring scene is problematic for a number of reasons. I think perhaps some of the X's and Dings have been misplaced, though the final result remains the same (Jesus does score at least 17 and does appear to win third place; IMO, he actually scores 19 and quite possibly 20, though from my own analysis, not Dundes). Here the most direct concerns, mixed with some points where a critic might quibble but where the film is correct:

(12) Was His Father (Joseph) a King? This is acceptable, but one might quibble. Joseph was said to be the heir of David, which did entail that he was king by right. Accordingly, Luke 1:32 says the father of Jesus is in fact David and he thus shall inherit the throne. See also Mt. 1:20 (angel calls Joseph a son of David) and Mt. 9:27, 12:23, 15:22, 20:30-31, 21:9, 21:15, 22:42, etc. (Jesus is called son of David). Jesus came from the seed of David (John 7:42; Rom. 1:3; 2 Tim. 2:8). So it certainly seems his father was a king in some sense. This deserves its Ding.

(13) Was Mary a "Royal Virgin"? She was certainly a virgin, so a Ding is deserved on that point alone. And according to Luke 1:5 and 1:36 Mary was a relative of Elisabeth who was a descendant of Aaron the first High Priest, which connects her tangentially to royal blood (several high priests also were king of Judaea), but she is also betrothed to Joseph, who is the heir of David and so technically an uncrowned king, which makes her a royal virgin by legal connection. The Gospel of James also has Mary the daughter of Joachim (aka Jechoniah) and Saint Anne, and the father's name here is perhaps an allusion to King Joachim of Judah, so Mary might be a descendant of David, too.

(14) Was Joseph a "near relative" of Mary: Possibly. Per above, both Joseph and Mary are of Davidic descent if Mary's father was not only named but also related to Jechoniah (this king is even mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus in Matthew). And both Mary and Joseph have family links to the priestly clan of the Levites. And of course, as Jews both are descendants of Jacob and so count as kin. Yet the rank of 17 given in the movie excludes this. The film doesn't put up an X or a Ding for this (so it seems to ignore it), but it does put up a Ding for father as king, since Dundes quickly states both together, even though these are separate points. The film then puts up an X for "reared by foster parents in a foreign country" yet I think this should be a Ding: Joseph is not his real father, and Jesus is raised in Egypt. I am not sure where the confusion lies here. It is hard to sort out what should be X'd and Dinged over the actual words of Dundes. The definite X's I think are battle with dragon (though in different contexts and ways Jesus was said to have battled, and defeated, Satan or Death, recognized even in the NT as a dragon, and the parallels with the Sphinx faced by Oedipus are not wanting) and marriage (though some scholars argue that the Wedding at Cana was in fact Christ's wedding, I don't buy that), but where should the remaining three X's go? I'm not sure.

(15) Was an Attempt Made on Christ's Life by his Father? Not literally, but Herod was sitting in his father's throne and thus acts in place of his father in the same way the Pharaoh does in the story of Moses. And since the criterion only says "often by his father" it is not necessary that it be his father to award a Ding here.

(16) Was Body of Jesus Not Buried? I think the act of burial is not meant, but the presence of an interred corpse: i.e. Jesus scores here because his tomb is empty. This criterion in other words includes the concept of the hero as resurrected or ascended and hence living as a god in heaven. One could also note that Mark and Luke clearly depict the burial as incomplete (anointing never completed) and thus not formally a burial before he vanishes. Nevertheless, the earliest tradition (per Paul) is that he was buried (and then rose), so the Ding here is awarded for the tomb being empty and hence the body not remaining buried, not for there never being any burial act itself

That's it. The only thing I did not double check was the list of "traits" of prior savior figures, since none were assigned to any particular gods nor was it mentioned when the traits were attested in our sources. Several of those might be debatable.