Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Moxy · 03-29-2005, 02:37 PM

I'm sure bible contradictions have been thoroughly discussed around here, but I can't seem to find exactly what I'm looking for. I've seen some examples from the list at SAB, but many of them do not seem solid enough, there is always some wiggle room to explain it away.

Does anyone have a few examples that are so opposed they simply cannot be resolved as something other than a contradiction?

Peter Kirby · 03-29-2005, 03:42 PM

First, give a couple examples of such in other literature.

best,
Peter Kirby

Family Man · 03-29-2005, 05:05 PM

There will always be wriggle room because any contradiction can be "reconciled" if you're willing to stretch the text to fit preconceived notions. The real question is whether the apologetics employed to create the wriggle room is reasonable. For example, by any reasonable reading the two genealogies for Jesus are concretely contradictory. But if you're willing to unreasonably assume that Luke's genealogy must be Mary's -- because otherwise it would be contradictory -- then not even the lack of evidence that it is Mary's will stop you.

In other words, the problem isn't the contradictions. The problem is the apologetics.

Godless Wonder · 03-29-2005, 05:23 PM

I probably shouldn't be posting in this forum, but I think Mark 9:1 is pretty close to a smoking gun.

Quote:

And he said to them, “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power.�?

Either Jesus thought the world was ending, or if not that, had to know (because he's supposedly God, and supposedly knows everything) that what he said would cause those within earshot to think that he meant the world would end pretty soon, (and it appears that this is what they did think.) If the former, then that's just wrong. If the latter, it makes him a liar. Positing the transfiguration to be what he's supposedly talking about doesn't really seem to fit very well with what he supposedly said, at least not to me, but, I'm no expert.

bwcourtn · 03-29-2005, 06:29 PM

i think this is the best apologetic:

http://www.bbie.org/WrestedScripture...t/Mark9v1.html

Sensei Meela · 03-29-2005, 06:42 PM

One of my favorites, as outlined by blt to go:

Quote:

(To save bandwidth, the three accounts of this event are at 2 Samuel 24:1-25, 1 Chronicles 21:1-28 and 1 Chronicles 27:24. Please read at your leisure)

Having read such, I have a few questions. Most are multiple-choice, to make it easy. (“A�?= 2 Sam., “B�?= 1 Chron. 21 and “C�?=1 Chron. 27)

1. When did God get angry?
A. Before the census
B. Because of the census
C. Because of the census

2. Who incited David to take the Census?
A. God
B. Satan
C. Nobody.

3. What human mandated the census?
A. David
B. David
C. Joab.

4. Who protested against the census?
A. Joab and his captains.
B. Joab.
C. Nobody, Joab did the census.

5. What was wrong with taking a census?
A. Nothing, God mandated it in Numbers 26:2
B. Nothing, God required it for taxes in Exodus 30:12
C. Nothing, They just did one in the preceding 23 verses!

6. How long did it take to do the census?
A. Nine months, 20 days.
B. Not recorded
C. Didn’t complete the census

7. Who all was counted?
A. All tribes
B. All tribes except Levi and Benjamin
C. Didn’t complete the census.

8. What was the number of the census?
A. 1.3 Million
B. 1.57 Million (with LESS tribes counted!)
C. Number was deliberately not recorded.

9. What stopped the census?
A. Done counting
B. Done counting
C. Wrath of God, census not completed.

10. Who took the blame for doing the census?
A. David
B. David
C. Not recorded, but apparently Joab.

11. What is the name of the Jebusite where the angel stopped?
A. Araunah
B. Ornan
C. Umm…What Jebusite?

12. What did the Jebusite do when he saw the Angel of Death?
A. Doesn’t say the Jebusite saw the Angel.
B. Just kept working, just kept working…
C. Excuse me? Jebusite? I do not see a Jebusite?

13. What did David buy from the Jebusite?
A. The Threshing floor and the oxen.
B. “the place�?
C. Are you crazy? THERE IS NO JEBUSITE!

14. How much did David pay the Jebusite?
A. 50 shekels of silver
B. 600 shekels of gold
C. @#*&! There is no Jebusite!

And Now for the Essay portion of our quiz. In your apologetic, discuss the theological implications of God getting so angry He desires to kill 70,000 people, but His nature of Justice mandates someone has to sin first. Also discuss the punishment of David’s sin being 70,000 OTHER people have to die. Also discuss Satan’s limitation of “tempting�? others unless God allows it. Or (in the alternative) discuss the ramifications of Satan and God working together to allow God to kill 70,000 people for David’s sin.

Now, let's bring it home... Imagine god's angel one night coming into your house and slaughtering your wife, children, grandchildren, brothers, sisters, etc. Every one you hold dear.

God is standing there, and you ask, "Why?"
God: "Because Bob across the street sinned and that really ticked me off."

Would you dry your tears and say, "Ha. There's god's justice for you. Makes sense to me. Bob sins. I lose my family."

...worse, sin doesn't even have to be involved [remember the blind guy?]. Take my example of the angel slaughtering your family.

Now when you ask, "Why?"
God says, "To show I am sovereign"

Yep - I am sure that will be MUCH more comforting than thinking it was because of "Bob's Sin."

C'mon, who is kidding whom?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

First, give a couple examples of such in other literature.

Would it not be sufficient to simply define a contradiction as 'two statements claiming factual accuracy which cannot simultaneously be true'? [only states perhaps a bit more eloquently]

Zeichman · 03-29-2005, 06:53 PM

In addition to rabid apologists, it seems paradox is enjoyed in the Bible itself, in addition to mainline Christianity (threeness in oneness of God, man as both saint and sinner, etc.).

Of course, when I say this, no examples come to mind.

As for contradictions... one could point to anachronisms that result from the documentary hypothesis. Like what's-her-name carrying her 13-year old boy on her shoulder, along with other things.

The creation stories can be extremely problematic, if one wants to go that route.

Chili · 03-29-2005, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwcourtn

i think this is the best apologetic:

http://www.bbie.org/WrestedScripture...t/Mark9v1.html

Some of you will see the kingdom of God means that some of them would experience the transfiguration while others would not?

The transfiguration is the evidence of a Beatific Vision and that would sure end the world with a metanoia (do a 180 and go the other way).

Peter Kirby · 03-29-2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Meela

Would it not be sufficient to simply define a contradiction as 'two statements claiming factual accuracy which cannot simultaneously be true'? [only states perhaps a bit more eloquently]

I want to know how loose or creative one can be with interpreting the statements in order to produce a harmonization.

best,
Peter Kirby

linwood · 03-29-2005, 08:05 PM

The death of Judas.
Did he hang himself or fall?

Mattew 27:5
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Acts 1:18
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

This one has a couple of difficult contradictions to harmonize.

1. Matthew says Judas died by hanging himself
Acts says he fell and "burst asunder"

2; Matthew says Judas returned the 30 pieces of silver to the preists and they bought Potters field where Judas hung himself.
Acts says Judas used the 30 pieces of silver to buy Potters field and than fell in it.

The most common harmonization is that Judas hung himself, the tree branch broke, he fell and burst asunder.

This doesn`t work for a number of reasons.

1.Acts implies he died as a direct result of the fall and never mentions him hanging.

2.Acts states he "..fell headlong", when a hanging body falls it usually falls headfirst.

This is the most common harmoization but there are others and they are even less convincing.

03-29-2005, 02:37 PM	#1
Moxy Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Aurora/Chicago Posts: 1,045	Most Concrete Contradictions I'm sure bible contradictions have been thoroughly discussed around here, but I can't seem to find exactly what I'm looking for. I've seen some examples from the list at SAB, but many of them do not seem solid enough, there is always some wiggle room to explain it away. Does anyone have a few examples that are so opposed they simply cannot be resolved as something other than a contradiction?

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03-29-2005, 03:42 PM	#2
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	First, give a couple examples of such in other literature. best, Peter Kirby

03-29-2005, 05:05 PM	#3
Family Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Superior, CO USA Posts: 1,553	There will always be wriggle room because any contradiction can be "reconciled" if you're willing to stretch the text to fit preconceived notions. The real question is whether the apologetics employed to create the wriggle room is reasonable. For example, by any reasonable reading the two genealogies for Jesus are concretely contradictory. But if you're willing to unreasonably assume that Luke's genealogy must be Mary's -- because otherwise it would be contradictory -- then not even the lack of evidence that it is Mary's will stop you. In other words, the problem isn't the contradictions. The problem is the apologetics.

03-29-2005, 06:29 PM	#5
bwcourtn Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: University MS Posts: 36	i think this is the best apologetic: http://www.bbie.org/WrestedScripture...t/Mark9v1.html

03-29-2005, 06:53 PM	#7
Zeichman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Posts: 562	In addition to rabid apologists, it seems paradox is enjoyed in the Bible itself, in addition to mainline Christianity (threeness in oneness of God, man as both saint and sinner, etc.). Of course, when I say this, no examples come to mind. As for contradictions... one could point to anachronisms that result from the documentary hypothesis. Like what's-her-name carrying her 13-year old boy on her shoulder, along with other things. The creation stories can be extremely problematic, if one wants to go that route.

03-29-2005, 08:05 PM	#10
linwood Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Sarasota, Florida Posts: 547	The death of Judas. Did he hang himself or fall? Mattew 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. This one has a couple of difficult contradictions to harmonize. 1. Matthew says Judas died by hanging himself Acts says he fell and "burst asunder" 2; Matthew says Judas returned the 30 pieces of silver to the preists and they bought Potters field where Judas hung himself. Acts says Judas used the 30 pieces of silver to buy Potters field and than fell in it. The most common harmonization is that Judas hung himself, the tree branch broke, he fell and burst asunder. This doesn`t work for a number of reasons. 1.Acts implies he died as a direct result of the fall and never mentions him hanging. 2.Acts states he "..fell headlong", when a hanging body falls it usually falls headfirst. This is the most common harmoization but there are others and they are even less convincing.

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