Freethought & Rationalism Archive

FordPrefect · 02-07-2006, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul2

Hey quick question: How is loosing 400 jewish slaves the greatest defeat of all time in egypt? Would a Pharoh actually give a shit about 400 slaves? Maybe. Would he care enough to write it down? Maybe, maybe not. He'd probably find another 400 slaves somewhere else to finish the job the jews ran off on. Anyway, 400 jewish slaves would have left some sort of a history that could be traced in egypt, yet there is none. Why is that?

The number claimed is closer to two million, IIRC, they were enslaved at some point throughout their 400 year residency in Egypt.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-07-2006, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darstec

Yes but those were just wars. Those nations were not quite as embarassing as Moses who drowned Pharoh's entire army.
:devil:

The drowning thing poses an interesting problem in itself. Exodus 1:11 claims that the Israelites were forced to bulid the city of Ramses. The city of Ramses was built under Ramses II. For that reason, Ramses II is the traditional Pharaoh of the Exodus, but there's just one little problem with that. Ramses II did not drown in the Red Sea. He lived to be almost 90 years old and he's not at the bottom of the ocean. He's in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. Here's a picture of his mummy.

NZSkep · 02-07-2006, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The drowning thing poses an interesting problem in itself. Exodus 1:11 claims that the Israelites were forced to bulid the city of Ramses. The city of Ramses was built under Ramses II. For that reason, Ramses II is the traditional Pharaoh of the Exodus, but there's just one little problem with that. Ramses II did not drown in the Red Sea. He lived to be almost 90 years old and he's not at the bottom of the ocean. He's in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. Here's a picture of his mummy.

well Satan obviously picked his body out of the red sea, and brought him back to life just so that athiests could argue with christians 4000 years later (or however long ago it supposedly was)

Toto · 02-07-2006, 01:42 PM

River's citations of the Qur'an on the topic of the Exodus have been removed. This forum is for discussion and not preaching. If you would like to explain how those passages are relevant to this issue, you may repeat them with commentary. But since the Qur'an derived them from the Hebrew Scriptures, I don't think you can use them to show anything about the historical value of the Exodus.

Thank you

River · 02-07-2006, 01:56 PM

Okay..thats cool.

But it is relevant towards egyptology because

the Qur'an states in Sura Yunus 92 that the Pharoahs' body will be PRESERVED for all to see.

This might influence the whole field of Egyptology.

-River

River · 02-07-2006, 01:58 PM

-Toto

The Qur'an is NOT derived from Hebrew Scriptures.

The Jewish & Christian Scriptures clearly state that the Pharoah

drowned in the Red Sea. Yet, the Qur'an states that his body was

PRESERVED. How could you say the Qur'an is derived from the hebrew

Scriptures when it is in disagreement with this crucial egyptological issue???

How did Muhammad (pbuh) know that the Pharoah's body would resurface? Is

this even possible....he didn't like walk into the Cairo museum or anything..or did he?

-River

Lugubert · 02-07-2006, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apikorus

We have Egyptian documentation of the Hyksos invasion and rule over lower Egypt. The Hebrew Bible itself describes vividly the fall of the northern kingdom to the Assyrians and the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians. I could go on...

Excellent points- especially on the Hyksos invason and occupation. Now THAT was the most humbling and traumatic defeat in Egyptian history.

May I add the battle of Kadesh, ca. 1285 BCE, between the Egyptians under Ramses II and the Hittites under Muwatalli. Both parties claimed victory in texts preserved, but we know that the Egyptian expansion towards the North was checked. So, it was mentioned...

steamer · 02-07-2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Excellent points- especially on the Hyksos invasion and occupation. Now THAT was the most humbling and traumatic defeat in Egyptian history.

Yes, but Willowtree isn't interested in actual recorded events. He's only interested in pretend non-recorded events. The Egyptions are very consistent in their insistnce on not recording pretend events. Why they actually lived under water for fourty days and failed to mention that as well.

WILLOWTREE · 02-07-2006, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grendelfreak

Would you be willing to elaborate on what you mean by the quoted?

I labelled assertions that said major Biblical claims never happened or greatly exaggerated as atheist philosophy.

I once challenged Joel Ng to a one-on-one debate about these assertions. He declined.

Ray Martinez

WILLOWTREE · 02-07-2006, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apikorus

We have Egyptian documentation of the Hyksos invasion and rule over lower Egypt.

One example technically fulfilling a record of a defeat. I stress ONE.

Where is a pattern of defeats recorded ?

Two, three, four....like the Bible does about Israel. We know there are none. Thats why I ask the question.

Quote:

The Hebrew Bible itself describes vividly the fall of the northern kingdom to the Assyrians and the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians. I could go on...

The OP already states this. Did you read it ?

I asked where does any other Near East nation records defeats ?

They don't because God didn't control the content of their records.

Ray

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02-07-2006, 01:42 PM	#24
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	River's citations of the Qur'an on the topic of the Exodus have been removed. This forum is for discussion and not preaching. If you would like to explain how those passages are relevant to this issue, you may repeat them with commentary. But since the Qur'an derived them from the Hebrew Scriptures, I don't think you can use them to show anything about the historical value of the Exodus. Thank you

02-07-2006, 01:56 PM	#25
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	Okay..thats cool. But it is relevant towards egyptology because the Qur'an states in Sura Yunus 92 that the Pharoahs' body will be PRESERVED for all to see. This might influence the whole field of Egyptology. -River

02-07-2006, 01:58 PM	#26
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	-Toto The Qur'an is NOT derived from Hebrew Scriptures. The Jewish & Christian Scriptures clearly state that the Pharoah drowned in the Red Sea. Yet, the Qur'an states that his body was PRESERVED. How could you say the Qur'an is derived from the hebrew Scriptures when it is in disagreement with this crucial egyptological issue??? How did Muhammad (pbuh) know that the Pharoah's body would resurface? Is this even possible....he didn't like walk into the Cairo museum or anything..or did he? -River

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