Diogenes the Cynic

A carpenter gets baptized by a religious fanatic and thinks he's the son of God.

He goes around insulting the religious authorities of his time, and partying with whores and drunks.

He's convicted of blasphemy and sedition and is actually guilty on both counts.

When he's knows he's going to get caught and executed, he cries like a bitch for God to save him.

While he's hanging on the cross, he whines some more that God didn't save him.

At least Socrates was man enough to take his medicine without being a crybaby.


It's pretty easy to caricaturize both stories, isn't it?
There is likewise no reason to believe that the crucifixion was part of any plan by Jesus.
You say socrates had a big ego, but he wasn't the one going around saying he was God.
Jesus tried to get out of any punishment at all.
Tell the truth. Don't fear death. Annoy authority.

Elijah

But did it help you to see any differences?


You could read the scripture if you like

That wasn’t his claim.

Wrong wrong wrong.

Boy you don’t know Socrates at all do you? Socrates was about submission to authority. He was totally into the citizen being like a child of the State. What truth did he ever speak? Old men never fear death just comes with old age.

Elijah

I believe in the NT but I believe in my interpretation of it. I believe people have a poor understanding of what Christ was trying to do and reduce his story to an older myth because of a lack of insight.

I believe Jesus willfully went to the cross because he believed his death would change the world… and 2000 thousand years latter his name is the only name from that time that anyone remembers. Dude called it, that’s why I believe. No miracles, no resurrection.


The Son of Man has always stood against the Rulers of Man. Mosses Elijah and Jesus were all trying to free us from earthy rulers. Pharaoh King Emperor. Jesus made an offer to the people, you can either sever a King who dies for you, or the Kings who send you to die for them.

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar is more then about paying your taxes, it’s about a revolution.

hatsoff

I beg to differ, but you are mistaken on at least two points of fact: 1) The grand plan that Jesus was said to have is a mythical invention; it is highly unlikely that Jesus thought he was saving anyone by dying himself. It is further unknown whether Jesus expected to die or resisted his executioners, and in my personal opinion both counts seem unlikely. 2) Socrates was not executed "just...for being a jerk." He was put on trial for preaching his own philosophical beliefs, just like Jesus. And it was not pride which caused him to go along with the sentence, but rather a belief that he would continue on in an afterlife.

So it is that the differences you see do not actually exist. And that is why we do not share your opinion that Jesus is unique in those respects.

Diogenes the Cynic

Elijah, your idisyncratic and self-serving little "interpretation" of the NT is all very cute, and I'm sure quite satisfying to you, but I hope you understand that it's of little or no use to any genuine historical criticism. Can you provide us with any kind of defined (and supported) historical theory or systematic analysis of the texts in question? Can you defend your hypothesis academically? can you even define it academically?

It sounds like you want us not only to accept the NT as evidence but to accept your particular interpretation of the NT. Make a case for why we should.

Elijah

Are we still talking about Socrates and Jesus? Not sure what you’re asking or looking for exactly. Am I allowed to use religious text for this little paper you want me to write for you?

windsofchange

Gee, you really seem to have it in for poor Socrates. What did he do, run over your cat or something? :huh:

Elijah

1) It’s obvious I believe he was more then just a mythical invention but that’s not really what this conversation is about.

2) Socrates was executed for being a jerk and insulting to his peers. If he would have gone into that trial and apologized or at least acted like an honorable individual he would have never been executed, but he insulted them and he was executed. An old man with too much pride is what made him go along with the sentencing.

If you see the story of Socrates as the same as Jesus it’s because you want to see them that way.

windsofchange

This thread seems to have gotten just a wee bit sidetracked. Reminder: the topic is not "How are Jesus and Socrates alike?" but "Why would Jesus' apostles die for their cause?" If anyone wants to start a Jesus/Socrates smackdown thread you are welcome do do so. Thanks!

Elijah

If Socrates was real and not just a character of Plato’s. He is pretty much the epitome of the town idiot in my mind. Big Big fan of Plato’s but how Plato paints Socrates is a man who died honorable because he couldn’t live that way.