Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IBelieveInHymn · 09-23-2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Virtue

My point was that you made absolutely NO distinction between your bible quote and your own words.

Sneaky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn
Ezekiel 28:15 says Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways but, evil was found within him, and the evil was not placed there by God.

See?

If you study the verse you will clearly see that evil was found within Lucifer. Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways (By God). But evil was found within him.

Study this; "Lucifer was created perfect since the day of creation."
(without sin).

2. But sin was found within him.

Certainly the sin that was found within Lucifer was not placed there by God.

Sin and evil are created by Lucifer. Not God.

Satan was lifted up because of his beauty, he corrupted the wisdom by reason of his brightness. Ezekiel 28:17

IBelieveInHymn · 09-23-2009, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Ezekiel 28:15 says Lucifer

Why would Ezekiel be using a Latin word? Did the Latin language even exist in Ezekiel's lifetime?

Ezekiel doesn't use the word "Lucifer."

I was adding His name into the verse, so other readers have a clue to what's going on in this debate.

"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee". Ezekiel 28:15

show_no_mercy · 09-23-2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Why would Ezekiel be using a Latin word? Did the Latin language even exist in Ezekiel's lifetime?

Ezekiel doesn't use the word "Lucifer."

I was adding His name into the verse, so other readers have a clue to what's going on in this debate.

"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee". Ezekiel 28:15

"Thou" in this chapter of Ezekiel is the "prince of Tyre" found in verse 2 and 12. Realize that the phrase "son of man" can be read as "son of adam" which is why the garden of Eden imagery is used; that phrase "son of man" meaning "human being" which includes both Ezekiel and the prince of Tyre.

This chapter has nothing to do with some supernatural (thus NOT a "son of man") creature called "Lucifer" or "Satan". Unless you're going to argue that Lucifer was on Earth and ruling Tyre.

IBelieveInHymn · 09-23-2009, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Ezekiel doesn't use the word "Lucifer."

I was adding His name into the verse, so other readers have a clue to what's going on in this debate.

"Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee". Ezekiel 28:15

"Thou" in this chapter of Ezekiel is the "prince of Tyre" found in verse 2 and 12. Realize that the phrase "son of man" can be read as "son of adam" which is why the garden of Eden imagery is used; that phrase "son of man" meaning "human being" which includes both Ezekiel and the prince of Tyre.

This chapter has nothing to do with some supernatural (thus NOT a "son of man") creature called "Lucifer" or "Satan". Unless you're going to argue that Lucifer was on Earth and ruling Tyre.

I've heard this argument before. The Prince of Tyre was not considered a perfect being.

Ezekiel 28:12-17 "Lucifer" means "Light-Bringer" or "Day Star." Ezekiel calls him "the anointed cherub who covers," which means he was one of the chief angels whose wings covered God's throne in heaven. He is specifically shown to be a created being, possibly the most beautiful, wise, and perfect of God's creations.

The Prince of Tyre was not considered the most beautiful, wise and perfect of God's creation.

Dark Virtue · 09-23-2009, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Virtue

My point was that you made absolutely NO distinction between your bible quote and your own words.

Sneaky.

See?

If you study the verse you will clearly see that evil was found within Lucifer. Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways (By God). But evil was found within him.

Study this; "Lucifer was created perfect since the day of creation."
(without sin).

2. But sin was found within him.

Certainly the sin that was found within Lucifer was not placed there by God.

Sin and evil are created by Lucifer. Not God.

Satan was lifted up because of his beauty, he corrupted the wisdom by reason of his brightness. Ezekiel 28:17

You're avoiding my question. How could a PERFECTLY created being create evil?

And where, pray tell, does it say in the Bible that sin and evil were created by Lucifer?

Quote:

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Quote:

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Quote:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Quote:

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Shall I go on?

Dark Virtue · 09-23-2009, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

"Thou" in this chapter of Ezekiel is the "prince of Tyre" found in verse 2 and 12. Realize that the phrase "son of man" can be read as "son of adam" which is why the garden of Eden imagery is used; that phrase "son of man" meaning "human being" which includes both Ezekiel and the prince of Tyre.

This chapter has nothing to do with some supernatural (thus NOT a "son of man") creature called "Lucifer" or "Satan". Unless you're going to argue that Lucifer was on Earth and ruling Tyre.

I've heard this argument before. The Prince of Tyre was not considered a perfect being.

Ezekiel 28:12-17 "Lucifer" means "Light-Bringer" or "Day Star." Ezekiel calls him "the anointed cherub who covers," which means he was one of the chief angels whose wings covered God's throne in heaven. He is specifically shown to be a created being, possibly the most beautiful, wise, and perfect of God's creations.

The Prince of Tyre was not considered the most beautiful, wise and perfect of God's creation.

First, it's not the prince, but the king. Second, it's Tyrus, not Tyre.

Quote:

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

If this is Lucifer, why not refer to him as such. Why refer to him as the King of Tyrus. What is that supposed to represent?

And again, how are you determining this as allegorical instead of something specific?

Amaleq13 · 09-23-2009, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Sin and evil are created by Lucifer. Not God.

Your Bible says otherwise:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Is 45:7, KJV)

It is simply foolish to suggest that an omnipotent and omniscient entity responsible for the existence of existence is not ultimately responsible for everything within that existence. But such problems are inevitable when one believes in childish and inherently problematic concepts like an omnimax entity.

Dark Virtue · 09-23-2009, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Sin and evil are created by Lucifer. Not God.

Your Bible says otherwise:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Is 45:7, KJV)

It is simply foolish to suggest that an omnipotent and omniscient entity responsible for the existence of existence is not ultimately responsible for everything within that existence. But such problems are inevitable when one believes in childish and inherently problematic concepts like an omnimax entity.

Busted.

show_no_mercy · 09-23-2009, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

"Thou" in this chapter of Ezekiel is the "prince of Tyre" found in verse 2 and 12. Realize that the phrase "son of man" can be read as "son of adam" which is why the garden of Eden imagery is used; that phrase "son of man" meaning "human being" which includes both Ezekiel and the prince of Tyre.

This chapter has nothing to do with some supernatural (thus NOT a "son of man") creature called "Lucifer" or "Satan". Unless you're going to argue that Lucifer was on Earth and ruling Tyre.

I've heard this argument before. The Prince of Tyre was not considered a perfect being.

Ezekiel 28:12-17 "Lucifer" means "Light-Bringer" or "Day Star."

Yes, Lucifer means "morning star", the same phrase Jesus uses for himself in Rev 22:18.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Ezekiel calls him "the anointed cherub who covers," which means he was one of the chief angels whose wings covered God's throne in heaven.

Where do you go from "christ (i.e. anointed) cherub who covers" to a chief angel with wings that covered god's throne?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

He is specifically shown to be a created being, possibly the most beautiful, wise, and perfect of God's creations.

There's no "specifically" about it. This is just you making up stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The Prince of Tyre was not considered the most beautiful, wise and perfect of God's creation.

That's because "god" in this verse is talking about humanity (son of man).

IBelieveInHymn · 09-23-2009, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Sin and evil are created by Lucifer. Not God.

Your Bible says otherwise:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Is 45:7, KJV)

It is simply foolish to suggest that an omnipotent and omniscient entity responsible for the existence of existence is not ultimately responsible for everything within that existence. But such problems are inevitable when one believes in childish and inherently problematic concepts like an omnimax entity.

Do you even realize the verse in which you have just posted?

Isaiah 45:7 Create woe, God permits evil for the sake of a greater good.

This does NOT mean "God is the creator of evil."

Once again, another mistranslated verse by an atheist to suit their argument.

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