Freethought & Rationalism Archive

French Prometheus · 05-18-2004, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, God appointed the seventh day of the week to be the weekly Sabbath; and the first day of the week ever since, to continue to the end of the world , which is the Christian Sabbath. (Westminister Shorter Catechism - Question 59)

Where is that written in the Bible?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

Even as early as the time of the Apostles, precedent was set for celebrating the Christian Sabbath on Sunday. In Rev. 1:10, John states "On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, ..." This is the only place where the "Lord's Day" is used in Scripture, and therefore is difficult to define, but when combined with the historical practice of the church and other Scripture passages concerning the worship of the New Testament church, the best suggesstion is that this refers to a day of worship, a weekly commemoration of the resurrection (which took place on no other day of the week than Sunday!)

As you wrote, there's absolutely no indication that the Lord's Day is the first day of the week. Anyway, where is it written that this day refers to the Sabbath or that the day of the Sabbath should be changed?
The Ten Commandments were given by God to man as an ever-lasting law. Jesus also confirmed their primacy. It takes more than mere Church tradition or "guessing" the hidden message in NT verses to abolish it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

In Acts 20:7, Luke writes "On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. In John 20:19, we read "On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together..." Again, in 1 Cor 16:2, referring to what must have been their normal time of coming together, we read "Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatioan churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income..."

What has that to do with the Sabbath? These are just references to events that occured on Sundays. Where does God/Jesus says that Sunday is the new day to celebrate Sabbath?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

The point is this: prior to the resurrection, history as well as the worship of God pointed forward to the time when a sacrifice would be offered, which was signified by the Jewish sabbath (and passover). Jesus Christ is the "paschal lamb". John the Baptist even said of him, "Look, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." However, now that the Christ has been crucified corresponding with the time of the former Sabbath, the Christian church now celebrates and looks back at the time of his Resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week, even as we look forward to the day of his return.

I understand that you can develop ad-hoc theology to explain why the change occured but my point is : where is it written that it DID occur?

Are believers supposed to follow YOUR interpretation of some unclear verses or God's clearly stated everlasting Law?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

As far as the issue of hypocrites goes, Christians ARE those who have broken the entirety of the law, ... and still do in and of our own strength. However, Christians rely on the promises and grace of God trusting in his forgiveness for breaking the Ten Commandments. That's the very reason Christ came, because no one, not even Christians could keep it themselves. However, as 1 John 1:9 says: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

Orthodox Jews seem to be able to keep the OT laws. Why is it such a big deal for Christians to keep AT LEAST those which have not been abolished by Jesus and are therefore still binding?
Many of your fellow Christians violate the most basic laws set up by God for ages to come and they still find the gall to oppose divorce, contraception, homosexuality, abortion, the welfare state, stem cell research, the teaching of evolution, etc... on biblical grounds?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

Jesus says in Matt 9:12 "It is not the healthy who nneed a doctor, but the sick." True Christians are those who have come to acknowledge they have a problem with sin, and need help from him who come to call not the righteous (in their own eyes), but sinners.

Yeah, well, I wish they strived to solve their sin problems without forcing those who don't share their faith to follow suit. If you consider that Sabbaths should be held on Sundays instead of Saturdays in direct contradiction to Scriptures, that's fine by me. It's between you and your God. But if you use the same Scriptures to force your lifestyle on others who don't want it, then I'll have a problem with that.

Hyndis · 05-18-2004, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by usartist

Is not hypocrisy the major complaint that we atheists have with theists?

Quote:

Originally Posted by usartist

I have a personal relationship with God. He understands that I need a little more than others. So he grants me forgiveness for violating a couple of his rules. He understands me, I have a personal relationship with him.

French Prometheus · 05-18-2004, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

One thing I notice is that often non-Christians point to different views among Christians as a reason to discount the Scripture. Christians acknowledge there are different levels of sanctification, maturity and interpretive skills among believers. That however, does not deny the perfection of the Scriptures. (2 Tim 3:16; John 10:35; 2 Pet 1:20-21, etc.)

No. Sola Scriptura is enough to discount Scriptures. The Bible is its own worst enemy. What Christians say or do merely confirms that the Bible is useless (or even dangerous) as a moral guidebook.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

That being said, in one sense, Christ himself IS the fulfillment of the Old Testament Sabbath. That's why Paul could say in Col 2:16-17 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come, the reality, however, is found in Christ."

Paul is not qualified to change God's Law. What's more, he was mostly preaching to Gentiles (contrary to James) and had to invent a version of Christianity that wouldn't be rejected by the Gaeco-Roman world. That's why he did away with many Jewish practices.

Biff the unclean · 05-18-2004, 10:02 AM

Tim you need to study a little history.
Christianity took over Mithraism in Rome. They stole the Vatican, which was the seat of Mithraism (you can still see the remains of the temple of Mithra in the sub-basement) They stole Christmas from them. The original throne of St Peter was covered with carvings of Mithra Tauroctonus. They took the Papacy. They even took the uniforms of the Mithrain chaplains from the Legions, changed the sword of truth on their backs for a cross, and they are still wearing them.

And they stole the Sunday Sabbath, which is the Sabbath day of Ahura Mazda (God the Father) and isn't Jewish at all.

No need for all your hand waving and misdirection. And there is certainly no need for you to continually include threats in your preaching, that's just plain rude. Here's a hint, before you get into the minutia of your beliefs you must first establish that a God even exists. Because most of us here could give a rat's arse about "forgiveness" as we have done nothing that needs to be forgiven and there is no god to forgive us. Your preaching is on the laughable level of threatening us with coal in our stockings. At least TRY to understand who your audience is.

MachineGod · 05-18-2004, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus_fr

I've raised this issue several times in various threads but never got a good answer. So I'm casting a line and see what I can fish...

1/ The 4th commandment
Exodus 20
8. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

2/ The seventh day of the week (reserved for the Sabbath) is Saturday
I've never heard this claim challenged, especially since the Jews have kept the Sabbath on Saturdays since before Roman times. There is NO changing the Sabbath from the last to the first day of the week anywhere in the Bible.

Right you are Prometheus. This is one of the many reasons I have made the claim that many, if not some, Christians are not true to their belief.

The reason that they keep the Sabbath on the first day of the week is because they confuse the Bibles references with “the Lord Day�?. The Lords day was supposedly the day that Jesus rose from the dead, AND the day that the Holy Spirit came down upon the apostles. It was on the “first�? day in connection with the first day of creation, and other associated meanings.

The church as forgotten, the Sabbath. This was done when the pope condoned that the Lords day be held as designated “off day�?. Which is why it has become evident that most people work Monday through Friday, sometimes Saturday, and off Sunday.

The pope is thought by many as a position that holds the “Number of the BEast�?. There is an inscription on the papal tiara of the pope that is, Vicarius Filii Dei (Latin)

Meaning…

VICARIUS - substituting for, or in place of
FILII - means son
DEI - means God

Like the Hebrew, Latin has a number system contingent with letters. Using that system you add up the number of each word, then add the three results, and the answer is 666. Also in relation to the Seal of God and the Mark of the Beast, the number of a name being the number of a man, doesn’t mean that it is the name of one man. It can refer to a position, or title as well.

Considering what you have presented, this could go into the idea of the mark of the beast, within the right hand (the works) of Christians. Which is damn near made state law. (not quite yet, but close). Understand that the Seal of God and Mark of the Beast, are not a literal stamp on your forehead or something.

There are some who think that the name of the Ruler at the time revelation was written, adds up to 666. But the problem with that, it that the same letter representing 50 appears twice in the name. In the number system of that language, a rule of the number system states, that if the letter that represent 50 appears twice in the same sequence that it is to represent the number 700. Therefore would not equal 666.

So, what you say is true, even if you consider that many Christian believe Satan will come first, claiming to be Christ. Even though they think this and hold it true, they refuse to believe that he will come from within the very church. Possibly even corrupting it as we speak, though some other means.
[editted to add]
I don't think many of them purposely pick and choose, I think they are just decieved due to ignorance of the law they hold true. Note that ALL Christians are not like this. Niether all believer in God.

Biff the unclean · 05-18-2004, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyndis

I'm told that when a Gay makes a slip like that it's called "outing yourself." And it's polite to pretend that you didn't know all along.

Hyndis · 05-18-2004, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biff the unclean

I'm told that when a Gay makes a slip like that it's called "outing yourself." And it's polite to pretend that you didn't know all along.

I'm just amused that such a thing happened in a thread about hypocrasy...

Rev. Timothy G. Muse · 05-18-2004, 10:48 AM

Rom 8:34 "Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died - more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God..." The Christian pastor does not speak on his own authority (for no one must answer to me), but speaks as an ambassador and relies solely on the authority of Scripture serving as a minister of reconciliation to those who will receive his (Christ's) message.

Note, I do not proclaim this message with a "holier than thou" attitude (for apart from the grace of God, I admit I am TOTALLY depraved), but I proclaim it because I believe it for myself (and I believe it true FOR ALL OF US). Having come to accept it as truth and having experienced the greatest comfort, peace, freedom and joy through it; I proclaim it that others might experience the same. The goal is not worldly guilt and sorrow, but godly repentance that leads to salvation. Note - the SAME rule applies to the Christian that applies to others... that is, we all have broken the law, possess a guilty record, and a broken life, but the solution is found in the gospel. The purpose of the law is not to simply make a person feel bad, but to lead us to Christ!

If God's word is not true, then we need not pay ANY attention to our conscience when it condemns us, for there is NO ultimate rule of law or accountability and a person is free to do whatever his mind conjures up; but since the Word of God is authoritative and true, it's better to "kiss the Son" lest we be found guilty before him.

What's this got to do with the Sabbath? I'm thankful for the Lord's Day, for through it's training, this wonderful truth has been preserved and proclaimed.

King Rat · 05-18-2004, 10:53 AM

Quote:

I'm told that when a Gay makes a slip like that it's called "outing yourself." And it's polite to pretend that you didn't know all along.

Can't say I'm suprised, annoyed but not suprised.

Rhaedas · 05-18-2004, 11:05 AM

A bit off topic, or maybe not...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Timothy G. Muse

If God's word is not true, then we need not pay ANY attention to our conscience when it condemns us, for there is NO ultimate rule of law or accountability and a person is free to do whatever his mind conjures up; but since the Word of God is authoritative and true, it's better to "kiss the Son" lest we be found guilty before him.

It's statements like this that make me glad that those who cling to morality based solely on their bible do believe in a god.

05-18-2004, 10:48 AM	#18
Rev. Timothy G. Muse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Brandon, Mississippi Posts: 1,892	Why do most Christians violate the 10 Commandments? (O, ye hypocrites) Rom 8:34 "Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died - more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God..." The Christian pastor does not speak on his own authority (for no one must answer to me), but speaks as an ambassador and relies solely on the authority of Scripture serving as a minister of reconciliation to those who will receive his (Christ's) message. Note, I do not proclaim this message with a "holier than thou" attitude (for apart from the grace of God, I admit I am TOTALLY depraved), but I proclaim it because I believe it for myself (and I believe it true FOR ALL OF US). Having come to accept it as truth and having experienced the greatest comfort, peace, freedom and joy through it; I proclaim it that others might experience the same. The goal is not worldly guilt and sorrow, but godly repentance that leads to salvation. Note - the SAME rule applies to the Christian that applies to others... that is, we all have broken the law, possess a guilty record, and a broken life, but the solution is found in the gospel. The purpose of the law is not to simply make a person feel bad, but to lead us to Christ! If God's word is not true, then we need not pay ANY attention to our conscience when it condemns us, for there is NO ultimate rule of law or accountability and a person is free to do whatever his mind conjures up; but since the Word of God is authoritative and true, it's better to "kiss the Son" lest we be found guilty before him. What's this got to do with the Sabbath? I'm thankful for the Lord's Day, for through it's training, this wonderful truth has been preserved and proclaimed.

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05-18-2004, 10:02 AM	#14
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Tim you need to study a little history. Christianity took over Mithraism in Rome. They stole the Vatican, which was the seat of Mithraism (you can still see the remains of the temple of Mithra in the sub-basement) They stole Christmas from them. The original throne of St Peter was covered with carvings of Mithra Tauroctonus. They took the Papacy. They even took the uniforms of the Mithrain chaplains from the Legions, changed the sword of truth on their backs for a cross, and they are still wearing them. And they stole the Sunday Sabbath, which is the Sabbath day of Ahura Mazda (God the Father) and isn't Jewish at all. No need for all your hand waving and misdirection. And there is certainly no need for you to continually include threats in your preaching, that's just plain rude. Here's a hint, before you get into the minutia of your beliefs you must first establish that a God even exists. Because most of us here could give a rat's arse about "forgiveness" as we have done nothing that needs to be forgiven and there is no god to forgive us. Your preaching is on the laughable level of threatening us with coal in our stockings. At least TRY to understand who your audience is.

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