Juststeve

Dog-on:

One actual historical fact about Jesus is that he was crucified by the Romans.

Steve

show_no_mercy

Not all Christians thought so.

Paul thought that Jesus was crucified by demons. The word that Paul uses for "rulers" is a word he regularly uses for demonic "heavenly" spirits.

It's implied in Galatians that the Galatian church didn't believe in the crucifixion of Jesus (3:1).

At best, you can say there was a "tradition" that Jesus was crucified [by Romans]. Just like there was a "tradition" that he wasn't crucified at all.

dog-on

That is not a fact, as the previous poster pointed out.

Littlejohn

Absolutely false! ... Jesus, that of history, was executed by the Jews (and so not by the Romans) through the stoning! .. This happened more than 30 years after the death of Pilate.

To have been crucified at the time of Pilate, was the character that the forger fathers, founders of the catholic-christianity, were inspired as a model for their 'universal' messiah (Jesus of Nazareth). The man did crucify by the Romans at the time of Pilate, almost certainly by Hasmonean descent, became a model for a messiah 'local', namely for the Jewish world.

Such a pseudo messiah was the charismatic figure of the 'Judeo-Christians', thus as Jesus of Nazareth, through the work of forger fathers, became the charismatic figure of the 'catholic-christians', although Jesus had nothing to do with the church and with the catholic-christian doctrine, having been he a character purely Gnostic!

Greetings

Littlejohn

.

Juststeve

Mercy:

That Paul thought that Jesus was crucified by demons in the sense you mean, if that’s what he actually thought, doesn’t prevent his crucifixion by the Romans from being a fact. It would simply mean that Paul was wrong. It is obvious that Jesus wasn’t crucified by demons to anyone like me who doesn’t believe in the reality of demons. Is that less obvious to you?

If we are going to discuss whether facts exist we need to avoid the mistake of saying that something isn’t a fact so long as someone disagrees that it is a fact. It is for example a fact that Obama was born in Hawaii, notwithstanding the denials of nut jobs who insist he was born in Kenya. The great weight of the evidence supports Obama's birth in Hawaii and that makes it as far as we can tell a fact.

Birthers don't agree about Obama and Mythers don't agree about Jesus.

Steve

show_no_mercy

You're going to have to provide some other evidence besides "tradition" that Jesus was crucified by the Romans... especially if you think that comparing the crucifixion of Jesus is comparable with the birth of Obama.

We have more than just "tradition" to conclude that Obama was born in Hawaii.

Juststeve

Mercy:

Are you agreeing to forever forsake the argument you initiated, that is that Jesus' crucifixion by the Romans is not a fact because you think Paul said he was crucified by demons? If so we are making some progress and we might move on to considering other evidence. If not the I see little reason to offer move evidence.

Steve

show_no_mercy

You've completely missed the point and are focusing on a single sentence. The point I'm making is that Jesus' crucifixion is a tradition - and we can't get beyond "tradition" to some sort of fact like Obama's birth. The example with Paul is one source of that tradition. Whether Paul thought that Jesus was crucified by the Romans, demons, or Captain Kirk is irrelevant.

Toto

Somehow you skipped the first step in this exercise.

What evidence is there that Jesus was crucified by the Romans? Some late, highly mythologized theological documents claim that Jesus was crucified by the Romans. Other "historical" documents disagree. What makes the crucifixion a fact?

aa5874

What ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!! What rubbish!!

It was the OFFSPRING OF A Ghost of God that was crucified in the Gospels.

Do you even read the Gospel?

It can NO LONGER be accepted that people make claims about "historical facts" without any historical source.

There is simply NO CREDIBLE historical source that show that there was a Jewish Messiah named Jesus who was crucified under Pilate.

The historical facts presented by Wars of the Jews 6.5.4, Tacitus Histories 5, Suetonius "Life of Vespasian" and Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with Trypho" show that there was NO known Jewish Messiah during the time of Pilate.

It is NOT an historical fact Jesus of the NT was crucified.