Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ChristMyth · 05-23-2010, 10:15 PM

"Jesus wept."

Why? I understand that this is in the center of the raising of Lazarus story, but if Jesus knew that he could raise Lazarus from the dead (and he did know since he waited until he was dead before going to the tomb), why weep?

What is the author of John trying to say?

Toto · 05-23-2010, 10:37 PM

net.bible

Quote:

The Greek word used here for Jesus’ weeping (ἐδάκρυσεν, edakrusen) is different from the one used to describe the weeping of Mary and the Jews in v. 33 which indicated loud wailing and cries of lament. This word simply means “to shed tears” and has more the idea of quiet grief. But why did Jesus do this? Not out of grief for Lazarus, since he was about to be raised to life again. L. Morris (John [NICNT], 558) thinks it was grief over the misconception of those round about. But it seems that in the context the weeping is triggered by the thought of Lazarus in the tomb: This was not personal grief over the loss of a friend (since Lazarus was about to be restored to life) but grief over the effects of sin, death, and the realm of Satan. It was a natural complement to the previous emotional expression of anger (11:33). It is also possible that Jesus wept at the tomb of Lazarus because he knew there was also a tomb for himself ahead.

wikichristian

Quote:

Weeping demonstrates that the Christ was indeed true man, with real bodily functions (such as tears, sweat, blood, eating and drinking. His emotions and reactions were real; the Christ was not an illusion or spirit. Pope Leo I referred to this passage when he discussed the two natures of Jesus: "In his humanity Jesus wept for Lazarus; in his divinity he raised him from the dead."

Some interpret his weeping to mean that Jesus was sorrowful for the fact that Lazarus had died (which was the interpretation of the bystanders in verse 36). A common view is that that Jesus wept because he understood and knew the pain and suffering that death brings. An alternate explanation considers that Jesus wept in anger because every person whom Jesus talked to (his disciples, Martha, Mary, and the Jews) was blinded by their misconceptions of Jesus and by their failure to recognize that, as he declared in verse 26, he was "the resurrection and the life".

aa5874 · 05-23-2010, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristMyth

"Jesus wept."

Why? I understand that this is in the center of the raising of Lazarus story, but if Jesus knew that he could raise Lazarus from the dead (and he did know since he waited until he was dead before going to the tomb), why weep?

What is the author of John trying to say?

It may be that the author is trying to distract his readers or audience.

The resurrection of Lazarus is almost certain FICTION.

Lazarus was ALREADY rotting and was dead for four days, the author cleverly appeals to the emotion of the readers by insinuating that Jesus loved Lazarus.

John 11.34-36

Quote:

They said unto him, Lord, come and see. 35 Jesus wept. 36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!

Jesus LOVED Lazarus dead?

Julio · 05-24-2010, 01:40 AM

I go along with the FICTION point.
Actually, it's to be more than fiction: it is cheating the readers with tales and inconsistent folklore.

James Brown · 05-24-2010, 07:28 AM

Quote:

An alternate explanation considers that Jesus wept in anger because every person whom Jesus talked to (his disciples, Martha, Mary, and the Jews) was blinded by their misconceptions of Jesus and by their failure to recognize that, as he declared in verse 26, he was "the resurrection and the life".

The idea that Jesus would cry because he was so frustrated that his followers didn't automatically assume that he was going to raise someone from the dead makes Jesus to be incredibly callous, in my view. Particularly since Jesus could have come earlier and healed Lazarus before the poor man died, but he deliberately delayed his coming.

"We asked you to come heal Lazarus, and you refused. And now that he's dead, I'm supposed to assume you're going to raise him (an even more difficult task on any level)? And because I didn't, you burst into tears? Um . . . no offense, but are you sure you're an omniscient God?"

Dave31 · 05-24-2010, 08:35 AM

Now where have I heard this story before?

Quote:

"...This description of Osiris the mummy being summoned from the tomb amid his two siblings sounds very much like the episode or pericope in the New Testament of Jesus calling forth the “mummy” Lazarus from the tomb in front of his two sisters:

"When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.” The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with bandages, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.” (Jn 11:43-44)

Like Jesus, at PT 268:372a-d/W 175 Horus also purifies the dead and removes evil:

"Horus...purifies...him in the jackal-lake, cleanses his ka in the Dewat-lake, and purifies...the flesh of his bodily ka..."

After the purification, it is said (PT 419:746b/T 225) that “Horus has dispelled the evil which was on you for four days.”

Coincidentally, the time of Lazarus’s period in the tomb is also four days:

“Now when Jesus came, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days.” (Jn 11:17;

As can be seen, there is good reason to assert that the raising of Lazarus represents a rehash of the resurrection of Osiris—and the parallels continue..."

- Christ in Egypt (or via: amazon.co.uk), 299/300

This is why NT scholars/students must get their nose OUT of the NT once in a while if they're interested in the full picture. If one is only narrowly focused on the NT how will they ever learn of the pre-xian pagan parallels? They won't. Then, they can continue pretending that there's no case for the mythicist position.

aa5874 · 05-24-2010, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

....This is why NT scholars/students must get their nose OUT of the NT once in a while if they're interested in the full picture. If one is only narrowly focused on the NT how will they ever learn of the pre-xian pagan parallels? They won't. Then, they can continue pretending that there's no case for the mythicist position.

But, NT scholars MUST KNOW that Justin Martyr did WRITE about the similarities of the JESUS story and other MYTHS.

Both Justin Martyr and Philo recognised that JESUS was NOTHING NEW.

This is Trypho in "Dialogue with Trypho" LXVII

Quote:

...Moreover, in the fables of those who are called Greeks, it is written that Perseus was begotten of Danae, who was a virgin; he who was called among them Zeus having descended on her in the form of a golden shower.

And you ought to feel ashamed when you make assertions similar to theirs, and rather[should] say that this Jesus was born man of men....

And this is Justin Martyr.

"First Apology" XXI

Quote:

....And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.....

And in "Dialogue with Trypho" LXX

Quote:

.."And when those who record the mysteries of Mithras say that he was begotten of a rock, and call the place where those who believe in him are initiated a cave, do I not perceive here that the utterance of Daniel, that a stone without hands was cut out of a great mountain, has been imitated by them, and that they have attempted likewise to imitate the whole of Isaiah's words?...

Since 1800 years ago an apologetic source has shown parallels with the Jesus story and known mythology.

ChristMyth · 05-24-2010, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

net.bible

Quote:

The Greek word used here for Jesus’ weeping (ἐδάκρυσεν, edakrusen) is different from the one used to describe the weeping of Mary and the Jews in v. 33 which indicated loud wailing and cries of lament. This word simply means “to shed tears” and has more the idea of quiet grief. But why did Jesus do this? Not out of grief for Lazarus, since he was about to be raised to life again. L. Morris (John [NICNT], 558) thinks it was grief over the misconception of those round about. But it seems that in the context the weeping is triggered by the thought of Lazarus in the tomb: This was not personal grief over the loss of a friend (since Lazarus was about to be restored to life) but grief over the effects of sin, death, and the realm of Satan. It was a natural complement to the previous emotional expression of anger (11:33). It is also possible that Jesus wept at the tomb of Lazarus because he knew there was also a tomb for himself ahead.

wikichristian

Quote:

Weeping demonstrates that the Christ was indeed true man, with real bodily functions (such as tears, sweat, blood, eating and drinking. His emotions and reactions were real; the Christ was not an illusion or spirit. Pope Leo I referred to this passage when he discussed the two natures of Jesus: "In his humanity Jesus wept for Lazarus; in his divinity he raised him from the dead."

Some interpret his weeping to mean that Jesus was sorrowful for the fact that Lazarus had died (which was the interpretation of the bystanders in verse 36). A common view is that that Jesus wept because he understood and knew the pain and suffering that death brings. An alternate explanation considers that Jesus wept in anger because every person whom Jesus talked to (his disciples, Martha, Mary, and the Jews) was blinded by their misconceptions of Jesus and by their failure to recognize that, as he declared in verse 26, he was "the resurrection and the life".

I just don't buy either of these explanations. Jesus knew that Laz was dead long before he arrived on the scene. He purposefully waited for Lazarus to die. I'm also sure that he was well aware of the rituals associated with death, so expected the weeping from the people at the tomb.

As for weeping because of the disciples, we already know that they are a bunch of baffoons who just don't get it. Jesus already knows this so there should be no need to weep over it.

Put yourself in Jesus shoes for a moment. A good friend (or what we assume was a good friend) is sick and you are told that he is going to die. But your and all-powerful deity and know that you can raise him from the dead which will be a great trick to show all your pals who you want to believe in you, so you wait till your friend shuffles off his mortal coil before arriving at the gravesite.

Now here's the thing that I don't get. Would you cry? Unless you thought that your awsome powers might not work this time, would you shed one tear or would you simply walk over to the grave, tell you friend to crawl on out, and open a beer?

Jesus tears just don't make any sense unless he thought that he really couldn't pull this one off.

Dave31 · 05-25-2010, 01:17 PM

I guess I missed the part in CIE that discussed 'the tears.'

Quote:

"...As Renouf points out, “The Nile god who proceeds from [the Weeper] also bears the same name.” The Nile god traditionally is Osiris; hence, it could be said that Osiris’s tears resurrect the dead. Indeed, one popular theme during the Middle Kingdom in particular was that “mankind was created out of the tears of the creator-god, especially the sun-god.” This motif of life-giving tears is reminiscent of the scripture at John 11:35: “Jesus wept,” in the pericope of raising Lazarus from the dead. It is interesting that this odd saying too appears only in the gospel of John—which is clearly the most Egyptian of the canonical texts—again, in the resurrection of Lazarus, who is demonstrably Osiris..."

- Christ in Egypt, page 243

I see no reason to take this scene in the Gospel seriously when it is clearly another parallel borrowed from the ancient Egyptian religion.

Toto · 05-25-2010, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

I guess I missed the part in Christ In Egypt that discussed 'the tears.'

Quote:

"...As Renouf points out, “The Nile god who proceeds from [the Weeper] also bears the same name.” The Nile god traditionally is Osiris; hence, it could be said that Osiris’s tears resurrect the dead. Indeed, one popular theme during the Middle Kingdom in particular was that “mankind was created out of the tears of the creator-god, especially the sun-god.” This motif of life-giving tears is reminiscent of the scripture at John 11:35: “Jesus wept,” in the pericope of raising Lazarus from the dead. It is interesting that this odd saying too appears only in the gospel of John—which is clearly the most Egyptian of the canonical texts—again, in the resurrection of Lazarus, who is demonstrably Osiris..."

Christ in Egypt, page 243

....

This is quite interesting, and the only solution so far that seems to make any sense. But does the Nile god resurrect the dead specifically or just create life? It does not appear that Lazarus or anyone else was raised by tears.

05-23-2010, 10:15 PM	#1
ChristMyth Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: US Posts: 1,055	John 11:35 "Jesus wept." Why? I understand that this is in the center of the raising of Lazarus story, but if Jesus knew that he could raise Lazarus from the dead (and he did know since he waited until he was dead before going to the tomb), why weep? What is the author of John trying to say?

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05-24-2010, 01:40 AM	#4
Julio Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Johannesburg Posts: 5,187	I go along with the FICTION point. Actually, it's to be more than fiction: it is cheating the readers with tales and inconsistent folklore.

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