Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 05-19-2009, 10:53 AM

Consider the following

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billc...ocs/guard.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Lane Craig

Of the canonical gospels, only Matthew relates the intriguing story of the setting of a guard at the tomb of Jesus (Mt. 27. 62-66; 28. 4, 11-1 5). The story serves an apologetic purpose: the refutation of the allegation that the disciples had themselves stolen Jesus' body and thus faked his resurrection.

What allegation is Craig talking about? What ancient sources state that there were debates about the stolen body?

In order to claim that a body is stolen, it is first necessary to know where it was put. There is no credible historical evidence regarding where the body was buried.

Huon · 05-19-2009, 11:31 AM

http://ministries.tliquest.net/theol...s/nt/peter.htm

Quote:

7. Then the Jews and the elders and the priests, perceiving what evil they had done to themselves, began to lament and to say, Woe for our sins, for judgment has drawn nigh, and the end of Jerusalem. And I with my companions was grieved, and being wounded in mind, we hid ourselves because we were being sought for by them as malefactors who wished to set fire to the temple. And upon all these things we fasted and sat mourning and weeping night and day until the Sabbath.

8. But the scribes and Pharisees and elders gathered together when they heard that all the people murmured and beat their breasts saying, If by his death these most mighty signs have come to pass, see how righteous he is, -- the elders were afraid and came to Pilate beseeching him and saying, Give us soldiers that we may guard his sepulchre for three days, for fear his disciples come and steal him away, and the people suppose that he is risen from the dead and do us evil. And Pilate gave them Petronius the centurion with soldiers to guard the tomb. And with them came elders and scribes to the sepulchre, and having rolled a great stone together with the centurion and the soldiers, they all who were there together set it at the door of the sepulchre; and they affixed seven seals and pitched a tent there and guarded it. And early in the morning as the Sabbath was drawing on, there came a multitude from Jerusalem and the region round about, that they might see the sepulchre that was sealed.

9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

Ben C Smith · 05-19-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billc...ocs/guard.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Lane Craig

Of the canonical gospels, only Matthew relates the intriguing story of the setting of a guard at the tomb of Jesus (Mt. 27. 62-66; 28. 4, 11-1 5). The story serves an apologetic purpose: the refutation of the allegation that the disciples had themselves stolen Jesus' body and thus faked his resurrection.

What allegation is Craig talking about? What ancient sources state that there were debates about the stolen body?

Craig is probably talking about Matthew 28.15 itself, which asserts that the story of the stolen body was still being circulated amongst the Jews.

Justin and Tertullian also assert that the Jews were circulating such a story about the disciples stealing the body. (IMVHO they are probably getting this notion from the gospel of Matthew, not necessarily from any independent knowledge of Jewish rumors.)

Ben.

Huon · 05-19-2009, 11:40 AM

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...ortpilate.html

The Report of Pilate to the Emperor Claudius

Quote:

Pontius Pilate unto Claudius, greeting.

There befell of late a matter which I myself brought to light (or, made trial of): for the Jews through envy have punished themselves and their posterity with fearful judgements of their own fault; for whereas their fathers had promises (al. had announced unto them) that their God would send them out of heaven his holy one who should of right be called their king, and did promise that he would send him upon earth by a virgin; he then (or this God of the Hebrews, then) came when I was governor of Judea, and they beheld him enlightening the blind, cleansing lepers, healing the palsied, driving devils out of men, raising the dead, rebuking the winds, walking upon the waves of the sea dry-shod, and doing many other wonders, and all the people of the Jews calling him the Son of God: the chief priests therefore, moved with envy against him, took him and delivered him unto me and brought against him one false accusation after another, saying that he was a sorcerer and did things contrary to law.

But I, believing that these things were so, having scourged him, delivered him unto their will: and they crucified him, and when he was buried they set guards upon him. But while my soldiers watched him he rose again on the third day: yet so much was the malice of the Jews kindled that they gave money to the soldiers, saying: Say ye that his disciples stole away his body. But they, though they took the money, were not able to keep silence concerning that which had come to pass, for they also have testified that they saw him arisen and that they received money from the Jews. And these things have I reported (unto thy mightiness) for this cause, lest some other should lie unto thee (Lat. lest any lie otherwise) and though shouldest deem right to believe the false tales of the Jews.

show_no_mercy · 05-19-2009, 12:18 PM

Is there any Jewish source for the rumor that the disciples stole the body? It seems as though Christians simply put this "rumor" inside the mouths of Jews.

Toto · 05-19-2009, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...ortpilate.html

The Report of Pilate to the Emperor Claudius
...

This is is from the apocryphal Acts of Pilate, universally regarded as a forgery. Matthew was probably the source (plus the author's imagination.) Justin Martyr refers to this report.

All we know is that by the mid first century, Christians had a story about Jews accusing Christians of stealing Jesus' body. Craig does not claim that any of this is reliable history (he's too smart to fall for that trap) but he does think that this is evidence that there was an empty tomb that needed to be explained away.

But actually, it seems more likely that there was a story about an empty tomb that needed to be explained, and led to a retort that the disciples stole the body.

Richard Carrier has a chapter in The Empty Tomb: Jesus Beyond the Grave (or via: amazon.co.uk) where he proposes that, if there was an empty tomb (which he doubts), that the disciples stealing the body would be a reasonable explanation.

aa5874 · 05-19-2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Richard Carrier has a chapter in The Empty Tomb: Jesus Beyond the Grave (or via: amazon.co.uk) where he proposes that, if there was an empty tomb (which he doubts), that the disciples stealing the body would be a reasonable explanation.

But based on the stories presented there really are no reasonable explanations other than the entire stolen body stolen was fiction.

If Jesus was just human, died and was buried, and if soldiers were guarding the tomb, the body must be in the tomb, unless the soldiers hid the body.

Johnny Skeptic · 05-19-2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

If Jesus was just human, died and was buried, and if soldiers were guarding the tomb, the body must be in the tomb, unless the soldiers hid the body.

Consider this possibility: If Jesus was just human, died and was buried, he obviously did not rise from the dead. No stolen body stories were circulating because no one expected Jesus to rise from the dead. When stolen body stories finally began to appear decades later, no living person knew where the body had been buried.

An empty tomb is not of any value whatsoever unless you can prove whose body, if any body, was in the tomb in the first place. This makes the story of the guards useless because there is not credible evidence regarding where Jesus was buried.

Huon · 05-20-2009, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...ortpilate.html

The Report of Pilate to the Emperor Claudius
...

This is is from the apocryphal Acts of Pilate, universally regarded as a forgery. Matthew was probably the source (plus the author's imagination.) Justin Martyr refers to this report.
...

The apocryphal Acts of Pilate are certainly a stupid forgery, but a relatively ancient forgery. gMatt is also a forgery, but a more intelligent forgery, older than Acts of Pilate, and somewhat anti-Jews. [I am a goy, and non-christian].

Doug Shaver · 05-20-2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billc...ocs/guard.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Lane Craig

Of the canonical gospels, only Matthew relates the intriguing story of the setting of a guard at the tomb of Jesus (Mt. 27. 62-66; 28. 4, 11-1 5). The story serves an apologetic purpose: the refutation of the allegation that the disciples had themselves stolen Jesus' body and thus faked his resurrection.

What ancient sources state that there were debates about the stolen body?

The author of Matthew.

Quote:

There is no credible historical evidence regarding where the body was buried.

You know that, and I know that. But Craig doesn't. He claims that the gospels are historically credible.

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05-19-2009, 12:18 PM	#5
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	Is there any Jewish source for the rumor that the disciples stole the body? It seems as though Christians simply put this "rumor" inside the mouths of Jews.

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