xaxxat

And exactly what would they consider that to consist of?

Steven Avery

Hi Folks,

btw, I had this email from before the archive work this afternoon.

Susan and show are going back and forth about .. something.

And Toto is pointing out that there are skeptical explanations as well .. as if that effects the price of beans in China. Clearly a non-sequitur in the thread context.

The only mess is the disjointed nature of the responses, I simply pointed out three major understandings of the sinlessness of Messiah from a Christian perspective, and how the one I understand as true is also a spiritual imperative for the virgin birth, and how it is an interesting question if this was a Hebraic (biblical interpretation) understanding in ancient times as well.

Fenton, I do not expect the skeptics here to agree that any of this is 'true', however even just on a scholastic level you should be able to leave the thread more informed than you came. If I use the word 'prayerful' once .. or quote a verse .. does that really shake your world to pieces ?

Personally, I have no desire to insult you or anybody on the forum, although with some .. it is difficult. Why not try to at least start off on a friendly footing and take it from there ?

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Toto

You didn't actually point out three understandings. You gave a brief reference to a crank theologist , as if we have nothing better to do than chase wild goosey references to obscure points of Christian theology.

Yellum Notnef

Apparently the book is easier to swallow with a prayer chaser. :huh:

Steven Avery

Hi Folks,

Are you a little cranky, Toto ? C'mon, pay attention and learn, or let others study.

So I will spell it out a little clearer for you, looking at why Jesus Christ was without sin, different from all other humanity on a biological level

#1 RCC - Mary is sinless per the immaculate conception doctrine and there is no human father ---> Jesus is sinless.

#2 'Protestant' - the Holy Spirit provides all the nature of Jesus, bypassing Mary's biological aspect. (this is some Protestants) and no human father.

#3 Jesus is sinless as the yetzer hara is passed through the man, thus the virgin birth bypasses the sin nature.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

storytime

Mary in her tribal name had been in "reproach" by men, men of Israel, the Jews? But not by the Word of God[Holy Spirit]. So what was "conceived" in Mary was of the Word of God long ago, at the beginning of Israel. The angel told Mary that she was highly favored among women. If so, by what positioning? Maybe her lineage in Levites as a daughter of Levi tribesmen? Maybe this is why Joseph was fearful in taking Mary, his wife, unto himself and his tribal name. According to how the men of Israel and the priests specifically decided who was to marry who, plays on the statement of "what was conceived in Mary is of the Word of God[Holy Spirit]. And as "God does not change", there is a conception that placed Levites as priests forever and they were commanded to do specific things in regard to their "elect" status.

Who was Mary if not a daughter of Levites? When did Levites go into "reproach" among the people?

The story wants to show the authenticity and authority of Jesus in his role as "savior" rabbi in his sacrifice of time and effort in his ministry, thus the lineages are given to authenticate his being a "son of god" aka "son of Jacob-Israel".

I'm running my mind out loud here so any intervention is welcome.

spin

Males -- god is male, isn't he? --, males usually choose females for biological reasons. Size of breast, shape of hip, how strong and energetic one is, no obvious genetic defects like bad breath or body odor, how willing one is to tart one's self up or wear "display" clothing (oops, that wasn't biological; sorry I don't know how to strike that). There would obviously be other issues, time of the month regarding ovulation, biorythms, whether it was football night (that's when Joseph went over to his buddy's house to watch the game). You know, the usual sort of stuff.


spin

("criteria" is the plural of "criterion")

hinduwoman

So, original sin is male?

But this does not answer why Mary of all girls in the world. We are never told that she is particularly virtuous or devoted.

show_no_mercy

Infancy Gospel of James

Toto

While the myth of the Garden of Eden is Jewish, is there any Jewish doctrine anywhere that associates sex with original sin?

Uta Ranke-Heinemann in Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven: Women, Sexuality and the Catholic Church (or via: amazon.co.uk) claims that Jewish doctrine was that sex was part of the goodness of the world, and that Christians got the strange notion that sex was sinful from the Gnostics. The Catholic Church has been edging away from its antisex attitudes (Ranke-Heinemann is a friend and admirer of the current Pope.)

ReligiousTolerance.com has a useful list of liberal positions on the virgin birth. There are many more that the three that Steven Avery considers "major" and some of the other positions have a lot more in the way of logic and humanity.