Freethought & Rationalism Archive

manwithdream · 10-27-2008, 10:58 AM

Before the belief in the trinity, were there any other ancient gods in or around Israel that were considered to be "multi-person" gods?

Clivedurdle · 10-27-2008, 12:05 PM

I thought it was a very common tradition, for example amongst the celts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess

mountainman · 10-27-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwithdream

Before the belief in the trinity, were there any other ancient gods in or around Israel that were considered to be "multi-person" gods?

Dear manwithdream,

The following is a summary of arguments made by the author Gerald D. Hart in his book Asclepius: The God of Medicine , The seventh argument gives the trinity of Zeus, Apollo and Asclepius.

Quote:

1. Jesus and Asclepius were both prosecuted under the law of the day and died a mortal death ...

2. After their deaths, Jesus and Asclepius were resurrected.

3. Jesus returned to Earth as part of a heavenly plan and as a sign to his followers. Asclepius was resuscitated to continue the medical care of mankind with the proviso that he would desist
from raising the dead.

4. Both were gods who lived among mankind: Jesus divine human and Asclepius a terrestrial divinity.

5. Both possessed "divine hands": Asclepius' were his drugs and light touch in healing; Jesus healed by touch or blessed and consecrated men for service.

6. Strong family associations: Jesus with his mother Mary; Asclepius with his daughter Hygieia.

7. Each were part of a Holy Trinity: Jesus - part of the Father, Son and Ghost; Asclepius - 3rd in descent from Zeus, son of Apollo, who was in turn Zeus' son ("the one who is guide and ruler of all things")

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

neilgodfrey · 10-27-2008, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwithdream

Before the belief in the trinity, were there any other ancient gods in or around Israel that were considered to be "multi-person" gods?

Not quite on target with what you are asking, but closely related, is the view that the ancients came to not particularly differentiate between their many gods and the idea of god, singular.

One reads sayings of Socrates where he will speak sometimes of “the gods” and other times of “(the) god”.

Whether in 5th century b.c.e. Histories, Philosophical Discourse, the Hippocratic Corpus or in Dramatic Tragedy, “[w]henever some theological truth is formulated, some statement about the regime under which mankind lives, the writer typcally does not name one of the traditional gods but says οι θεοι or ο θεος (in tragedy commonly without the article).” (p. 38 )

West concludes:

Quote:

The indifference as between singular and plural is possible because when someone says ‘the gods’, the assumption is that these gods act as a unanimous body. Because of the force of tradition there was no hurry to discard polytheistic language, and yet there was a general disposition to see the divine regimen as unified and purposeful. This was a situation in which monotheism could develop without causing upset. (pp.38-39)

From another post How Polytheism morphed . . .

Neil

Roger Pearse · 10-28-2008, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I thought it was a very common tradition, for example amongst the celts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess

I would tend to regard that article as the sort of thing that brings Wikipedia into disrepute. It's vague, lacking in appropriate sources, and insinuates something that I doubt could be proven.

It would be most interesting to see if anything solid emerges from this, but I fear that unwary people will merely go down the "vague parallels prove connection and derivation" fallacy.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

robto · 10-28-2008, 08:24 AM

I think the closest parallel would probably be the Greek idea that there were local "versions" of the big gods. I don't have a good reference for this, but in The Bacchae there is a line where (IIRC) someone asks if this god (Dionysus) that has been running around is one such local deity, and is told no, it is the god himself.

Personally, I don't think there is any convincing way to DERIVE the Christian trinity from other, previous, beliefs. I think it was a unique response to a unique set of historical precedents. Christians had a long history of talking about Jesus as a god, and an even longer Jewish history of insisting on only one God, to deal with. Some (gnostic) Christians repudiated the Jewish tradition. Others (Ebionites) repudiated the god-language for Jesus. The winning faction refused to repudiate either tradition, and so painted themselves into a corner: Jesus was god, and the Father was god, but there was only one God. So they invented a new language for talking of God simultaneously as three and one.

mountainman · 10-28-2008, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robto

I think the closest parallel would probably be the Greek idea that there were local "versions" of the big gods. I don't have a good reference for this, but in The Bacchae there is a line where (IIRC) someone asks if this god (Dionysus) that has been running around is one such local deity, and is told no, it is the god himself.

Dear robto,

The archaelogical citations for the period from c.500 CE through an unbroken chain to c.500 CE suggest that the Healing God Asclepius was highly revered in the entire Roman empire. An absolutely huge network of temples and shrines have been uncovered to establish that, for all intents and purposes, the god-like trinity, if any, in the minds of the people of antiquity, would be the trinity of Zeus, Apollo and Asclepius. Have a look at this link, and be aware that this network of temples is appropriately described as The public hospital system of antiquity, in which christians do not appear until St. Cosmas.

Best wishes,

Pete

Clivedurdle · 10-29-2008, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I thought it was a very common tradition, for example amongst the celts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess

I would tend to regard that article as the sort of thing that brings Wikipedia into disrepute. It's vague, lacking in appropriate sources, and insinuates something that I doubt could be proven.

It would be most interesting to see if anything solid emerges from this, but I fear that unwary people will merely go down the "vague parallels prove connection and derivation" fallacy.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Quote:

LugusCeltic deity also called Lug, or Lugh

Main

(Celtic: “Lynx,” or “Light”?), in ancient Celtic religion, one of the major gods. He is one of the deities whom Julius Caesar identified with the Roman god Mercury (Greek: Hermes). His cult was widespread throughout the early Celtic world, and his name occurs as an element in many continental European and British place-names, such as Lyon, Laon, Leiden, and Carlisle (formerly Luguvallium, “Strong in the God Lugus”).
According to Irish tradition, Lug Lámfota (“Lug of the Long Arm”) was the sole survivor of triplet brothers all having the same name. At least three dedications to Lugus in plural form, Lugoues, are known from the European continent, and the Celtic affinity for trinitarian forms would suggest that three gods were likewise envisaged in these dedications. Lug’s son, or rebirth, according to Irish belief, was the great Ulster hero, Cú Chulainn (“Culann’s Dog”)

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/350984/Lugus

All I was noting that multiple mixed up gods are common. What exactly are you questionning?

10-27-2008, 10:58 AM	#1
manwithdream Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: united states Posts: 156	ancient multi-person gods Before the belief in the trinity, were there any other ancient gods in or around Israel that were considered to be "multi-person" gods?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-27-2008, 12:05 PM	#2
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I thought it was a very common tradition, for example amongst the celts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess

10-28-2008, 08:24 AM	#6
robto Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 701	I think the closest parallel would probably be the Greek idea that there were local "versions" of the big gods. I don't have a good reference for this, but in The Bacchae there is a line where (IIRC) someone asks if this god (Dionysus) that has been running around is one such local deity, and is told no, it is the god himself. Personally, I don't think there is any convincing way to DERIVE the Christian trinity from other, previous, beliefs. I think it was a unique response to a unique set of historical precedents. Christians had a long history of talking about Jesus as a god, and an even longer Jewish history of insisting on only one God, to deal with. Some (gnostic) Christians repudiated the Jewish tradition. Others (Ebionites) repudiated the god-language for Jesus. The winning faction refused to repudiate either tradition, and so painted themselves into a corner: Jesus was god, and the Father was god, but there was only one God. So they invented a new language for talking of God simultaneously as three and one.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.