Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rick Sumner · 07-06-2007, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Some apologists will tell you that a lot of those similarities are bogus, and that there is no evidence that pagans believed that. Don't believe them! They may even ask you to provide such evidence. But this is ridiculous, since we know that people back them had various beliefs. Not having clear-cut statements should be no reason why we can't assume such beliefs. Justin Martyr famously said, "Well, I can't explain all those similarities between Christianity and you pagans' religions. Jesus ascending to heaven is so obviously just like a man riding a flying horse. Hercules and Jesus were both strong and wandered around the earth. Creepy similarities! How am I going to explain this? I guess I'll just have to say that Satan looked into the future and inspired the pagans to make up stuff."

Jesus Rocks. Mithras sprang from a rock. Coincidence?

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Toto · 07-06-2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

...
Jesus Rocks. Mithras sprang from a rock. Coincidence?

Regards,
Rick Sumner

And Peter's name mean "Rocky" although it's not clear whether that's because he was the foundational rock of the church or whether his head was as hard as a rock and the message never sank in.

Just for posting that awful link.

mountainman · 07-06-2007, 06:09 PM

There is of course what I would be inclined to view
as very good evidence that whoever it was that put
words into the mouth of Jesus Christ plaguerised the
extant words of Philo and Josephus in relation to the
philosophical, social and ethical practices of "the tribe"
known as the Essenes.

I have provide the following reference on a number of
occassions, but noone appears to want to discuss it
in this forum.

A tabulation of some of the essential parallels
between the philosophy of the Essenes
and Constantine's New testament.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

neilmarr · 07-07-2007, 12:26 AM

Thanks, Pete. I've saved that for a thorough read later.

I'm still sure, though, that many (if not most) of the sayings of Christ (though I agree that careful editing will have planted much from later writings) are direct cribs from earlier recorded Jewish thinkers. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me. Best. Neil

Gracchus · 07-07-2007, 02:02 AM

Indeed, many of the teachings of Jesus were not original to him. In fact, his teachings were almost identical to those of the Pharisees. The Pharisees, in points of law, stood in opposition to the formal legalisms of the Sadducees (Zadokites) who were the priestly party. It is interesting to not that Paul, who claimed to be a Pharisee was in fact a member of the temple police. (See for instance: The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity: Books: Hyam Maccoby by Hyam Maccoby.)

:wave:

GakuseiDon · 07-07-2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilmarr

No offence taken, Don. Your comment gave me a wee giggle, too.

Thanks, Neil.

The whole topic of what people used to believe and what influenced Christianity can be fascinating, regardless of what side of the fence you sit. Just be aware that there is a lot of bogus information flying around on pre-Christian "similarities" to Jesus and Christianity. But there is also quite a lot of legitimate similarities that can be found as well. Good luck with the hunt!

Gundulf · 07-07-2007, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilmarr

I hope you'll forgive me for asking a question in my very first post here -- feels almost like mailing out a begging letter.

It's my understanding (though I've lost track of my sources) that many of the popular sage words attributed to Christ in the canons are by no means original and can be traced back -- almost word-for-word -- to the recorded sayings of earlier Jewish thinkers.

If anyone could offer any information (directly in the forums or through links or books), I'd be more than grateful.

This is one impressive site, by the way. It will take me some time to catch up on everything archived here, but I'll do my best and hope to offer something constructive to the debate as time goes on.

Best wishes. Neil Marr

Well, this was in the days before they had standardized the use of footnotes, after all.... :Cheeky:

Yes, no argument that I know from scholars liberal, skeptical, or evangelical, that Jesus interacted with, and at times spoke in ways that were very similar to the various other streams of Jewish thought. Jesus is considered, in any regard, an 'early Jewish thinker', after all - And no, I wouldn't imagine that everything he ever said was original.

(Many evangelical scholars also point out that he said some things that are strikingly similar to the Old Testament, as well..... :Cheeky: )

Ljoilae · 07-08-2007, 12:26 AM

I know it's not quite what you're looking for, but I've always noticed that a lot of Jesus' purported teachings remind me wickedly of what the Stoics taught (from my experience, Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus and Seneca).

angelo · 07-08-2007, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilmarr

I hope you'll forgive me for asking a question in my very first post here -- feels almost like mailing out a begging letter.

It's my understanding (though I've lost track of my sources) that many of the popular sage words attributed to Christ in the canons are by no means original and can be traced back -- almost word-for-word -- to the recorded sayings of earlier Jewish thinkers.

If anyone could offer any information (directly in the forums or through links or books), I'd be more than grateful.

This is one impressive site, by the way. It will take me some time to catch up on everything archived here, but I'll do my best and hope to offer something constructive to the debate as time goes on.

Best wishes. Neil Marr

Try this; www.jesusneverexisted.com

angelo · 07-08-2007, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

...
Jesus Rocks. Mithras sprang from a rock. Coincidence?

Regards,
Rick Sumner

And Peter's name mean "Rocky" although it's not clear whether that's because he was the foundational rock of the church or whether his head was as hard as a rock and the message never sank in.

Just for posting that awful link.

The twelve were all thick as bricks acording to the gospels. They all failed to realize who the hell he was and his message. Yet he produced miracle after miracle in their presence. A dumber lot he could not choose. :devil3:

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07-06-2007, 06:09 PM	#13
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	There is of course what I would be inclined to view as very good evidence that whoever it was that put words into the mouth of Jesus Christ plaguerised the extant words of Philo and Josephus in relation to the philosophical, social and ethical practices of "the tribe" known as the Essenes. I have provide the following reference on a number of occassions, but noone appears to want to discuss it in this forum. A tabulation of some of the essential parallels between the philosophy of the Essenes and Constantine's New testament. Best wishes, Pete Brown

07-07-2007, 12:26 AM	#14
neilmarr Junior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Menton-Monaco, France Posts: 12	Thanks, Pete. I've saved that for a thorough read later. I'm still sure, though, that many (if not most) of the sayings of Christ (though I agree that careful editing will have planted much from later writings) are direct cribs from earlier recorded Jewish thinkers. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me. Best. Neil

07-07-2007, 02:02 AM	#15
Gracchus Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: California Posts: 359	Indeed, many of the teachings of Jesus were not original to him. In fact, his teachings were almost identical to those of the Pharisees. The Pharisees, in points of law, stood in opposition to the formal legalisms of the Sadducees (Zadokites) who were the priestly party. It is interesting to not that Paul, who claimed to be a Pharisee was in fact a member of the temple police. (See for instance: The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity: Books: Hyam Maccoby by Hyam Maccoby.) :wave:

07-08-2007, 12:26 AM	#18
Ljoilae Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Miðgarðr Posts: 707	I know it's not quite what you're looking for, but I've always noticed that a lot of Jesus' purported teachings remind me wickedly of what the Stoics taught (from my experience, Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus and Seneca).

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