spin

We were not talking about when the blood was supposed to hit the doorposts, but when the sacrficed took place. Dt 16:6 and Josh 5:10, in the evening, at sundown.

And you have still failed to explain BYN H(RBYM in its context -- "slaughter [the lamb] in front of the assembled congregation of Israel between the evenings" -- was it slaughtered at a particular time or did the congregation wait for the whim of Moses? You avoid along the way the evidence for the day starting in the morning. Deal with it, my little Pharisee.

What's the point?

(In answering this question don't forget that there are several biblical passages you still have to deal with.)


spin

Sheshbazzar

The Rabbis were able by their 'influences' to alter the understanding of a lot of verses, to conform to their "commandments of men, that make the Law of Yahweh of no effect"; of course their fantastic and outlandish claims about "Ha Shem" being a prominent and still ongoing example.
However these Rabbis had to work with a text that had already became quite standardized and 'canonized'; The texts regarding The Sabbaths had been zealously defended from the time of Ezra and changing even a single "yod' of the 'received' text became untenable, so much so that even simplest of misspellings could not be corrected because of the sacrosanct nature of the scrolls themselves.
But of course that did not prevent certain Rabbinical 'schools' from imposing their own peculiar interpretations and "understandings" upon the given text,
this is evident in 'Kethib-Qere' and 'Qere-perpetua' notes that instruct the Hebrew reader to read from the marginal renderings, not the words that actually appear within the text allegedly being "read".
Don't be deceived by appearances, when the "Torah" is being "read" in the Synagogues, it is not the Torah scroll alone that is being read, but carefully memorized Rabbinical insertions are passed off as being read from the text.
In sum, No I don't believe they were able to change the way days are calculated.
Exodus 12:6 is a prime example, for given the Jew's Pascal customs over the last two millinea, they would have every reason to alter "beyn ha-ereb'eem" to read simply "ha-ereb" but have not, therefore I regard the words of the MT text quite accurate in regard to how days are to be calculated,
I do however believe it to be inferior in many respects to the 'lost' texts that were employed in translating the Septuagint and thus the Septuagint superior to the MT in some respects, I do not worship books or scrolls.
"The evening and the morning were the first day", of course "the morning" marked the original first day, none the less that day was preceded by "the evening", a darkness unmeasurable and unfathomable, Then the second day came into being, and "the evening" (12 hours), and "the morning" (12 hours) were the second day", but as yet there was no sun, nor moon, nor stars, to give any light, nor to divide the days nor the seasons, until the fourth day, The only light was the word of Yahweh alone.
Respectfully, Zerubabble

spin

This is utter drivel. Sheshbazzar, you seem determined to redefine Hebrew terms with a zest for creativity. The word (RB, evening, comes from a Semitic verb meaning "to go in/to set" and refers to the sun setting and the period which follows. You are deliberately confusing evening with night (LYL). The same is true for your erroneous use of BQR, "morning". It doesn't refer to day in general, but to the break of day and the time immediately following.

You misconstrue Genesis with a vengeance.

As a good example to all people, God works of a daytime; when he finishes working there is evening (the start of night) and there is morning (the end of night), a day has passed and God starts with the next day's creation. In forgetting the part in which God does his work, you omit half the data and that's because your conclusion drives you to do so. You've got to do better than this.


spin

spin

And you don't answer questions either. You have avoided trying to explain the meaning of BYN H(RBYM for several posts now.

And why should they change BYN H(RBYM? The Jewish scholar is happy to translate it as "twilight", as per the most recent JPS translation, as does the NRSV, the old JPS has "dusk", the LXX pros esperan, the Vulgate "ad vesperam". You are the one who is trying to make something out of it, yet have failed to do so. You mightn't worship books, but it might help to read a few.


spin

Sheshbazzar

No intent to duck anything that you posted, but it sure is a lot!
You have not formulated replies to every single point that I have made, and to expect me to reply to each and every verse that you can throw at me is unreasonable.
The majority of those posts I read virtually identically word for word just as you have them written, our only difference being in how we understand the intended meaning of the verses.
No need to be insulting, I also believe the meaning of the text was,
"The gates normally got closed at night, and were closed throughout the Sabbath Day." with the qualification that they were now being closed much earlier than was the prior practice.
Hardly ridiculous spin, in fact I have been careful to honor the point that you made about these "Israelites" really being a bunch of polytheistic Canaanites, who were unacquainted with monotheism. surely they would have had a few objections to Nehemiah imposing his religious ideas upon them, all the more if it substantially interfered with conducting business.
I have carefully and respectfully explained my, and my peoples beliefs, to ask of you to likewise respectfully explain for all, your definition of "How long an evening is", is by no means a "red herring".

You continue to insultingly refer to a day that is observed from "even until even" as a "Pharisaic day", at most I have disagreed with your opinion regarding the beginning and ending of a Biblical day, and my position in regard to this is no different than that position that is held by virtually all well known and well respected Biblical scholars, Jewish, Christian, and yes even Atheist.
This is not "an appeal to authority", but a statement that the position that you are endeavoring to hold flies in the face of all mainstream textual criticism and Biblical scholarship, and is representative the views of only an extremely minute fraction of Biblical 'scholars' by any name or definition.
(For anyone who is really interested, A web search will prove this statement a thousand times over)
The sheer abundance of your posts does not qualify you as the Atheist's "Pope", your opinion in this matter is nothing more than your opinion, no other Atheist need embrace it, and I trust most will not.
I disagree with your opinion, but I will not insult you as a person, nor speak insultingly of your scholarship, nor of your way of calculating time.

I did not base any "argument" on Paul's speaking all night on the first day of the week, merely the observation that life did not simply and automatically grind to a halt at night simply because "They didn't have electricity" as you sarcastically replied.

Respectfully, Zerubabble

Chili

I would add that light is life and life must exist for darkness to follow. The fact that morning follows only means that darkness is also an illusion or the eternal day could never be . . . which makes sin an illusion but not Original Sin or darkness would never be.

Sheshbazzar

I am ending this particular dialog now, as I said in my previous post,
If anyone cares to investigate the foregoing matter further, Do a thorough web search, and inquire of other Biblical scholars that are of good repute.
If spin from "nowhere" now manages to suck you in with his spin tactics,
you will only be, where you are intended to be.

I am not anonymous, I list my city, and have even posted the Name and place of the assembling with my brothers and fellow workers.
Anyone who wants to know me better, or has a question about the Faith,
or about any of my personal persuasions, may contact me by using the private message function.

Everyone reading this is welcome to come and visit The Assembly of Yahweh in Eaton Rapids Michigan, or visit the Assembly of Yahweh website.

Respectfully, Sheshbazzar

spin

Still ducking and weaving. Float like a butterfly, jump like a flea.

What hasn't had some sort of reply?

Jump like a flea...

Umm, how should I put it then, for some unknown reason you don't take note of the fact that the gates were shut in the evening and opened in the morning, so, when Nehemiah enforces them shut also during the day of the sabbath, they remained shut from the night before to the morning after the sabbath. It's pretty plain from Nehemiah, yet you just don't get it. It is as though you aren't reading the text at all, or you're having trouble reading it.

Float like a butterfly...

When Nehemiah told them to piss off, why are you so compassionate???

Cute, but another red herring.

If you hadn't noticed the length of the evening changes throughout the year. Unless you take the time to express any point you have thus far omitted, I must conclude that you have no point, ie it's a red herring.

Boinggg, boinggg, boinggg...

What's insulting about that? It was they who enforced it. Why not call it for what it is? And I don't use "Pharisaic" with any derogatory content. Your sensibilities are somewhat over-reactive.

(which is substantial as a disagreement)

There is no endeavour about it. I hold it and have shown you why it is correct. It will eventually sink in when/if you take the time to think about it.

Not an argument from authority, eh?

Is there some point to your reverie?

Jump like a...

And a majority of Americans apparently voted for the Shrub. Sadly it's not a popularity contest, otherwise we'd be doing demagoguery, not history.

And this pathetic rhetoric is no cover-up for your lack of substance. You are wasting words and not even attempting to justify your erroneous stance.

Float like a butterfly.

You are wasting your breath avoiding your responsibilities with this sad excuse for lack of argument. Presented with biblical evidence, you hide from your responsibility to deal with it. Opinion is a statement which doesn't have enough evidence to back it up. As you won't deal with the evidence, you simply wouldn't know.

No you don't: you avoid the evidence,

. weave a circle round him thrice
. and close your eyes in holy dread...

I will continue to goad you to deal with facts and stop this empty sophistry. You have been appalling in your "defence" of the day beginning at evening. Understandable, because I don't think you can defend it. One of those nice dilemmas: your beliefs don't fit the facts, but, you won't let go of those beliefs, so you avoid the facts.

Anything for you not to deal with the substance of the thread I guess.

Float like a butterfly, jump like a flea.


spin

spin

Simply pathetic.

At every point you abnegate your responsibility.

Asked to defend your non-biblical beliefs, you use sophistry to cover your tracks. Apparently, the biblical text ultimately means nothing to you, because you are too willing not to use it or even look at it.

Now you play hurt and duck out. Not good. But you can always make amends by either demonstrating the error in my ways or changing your position.


spin

Chili

In defense of my friend Sheshbazzar would I argue that Sabbath must begin when evening comes because the 'Egyptian' must die before the seventh day and until then do we live in darkness and must 'welcome' the light of common day -- from which follows that every day must begin at evening as well. We welcome the morning star but sooner or later call it Lucifer because the light of common day is not really what we are looking for.

The difference is that creation took place in Eden from where evening followed the day but where we are the opposite is true (or a lamp would do and that can't be true or Lady MacBeth would have been just fine). See also Rev.22:5, "the night shall be no more. They will need no light from lamps or from the sun, for the lord God shall give them light, and they shall reign forever."

Edited to add that this is different for Catholics who are guided by the Infallible Holy Sea (but maybe not).