Clivedurdle

(NEB)

What actually was Paul's view of Jesus? This sounds to me that he thought he was a real human being who became Son of God. I don't want to discuss the second part of the quote and its interesting theological implications, but the first part, that a human was born and did exist.

I e does this state Paul was quite clear that there was a historical Jesus?

Chili

I think the "mighty act" is not in being raised from the death but in being born of God. It is wrong to think that Jesus 'became' son of God if he 'was' son of God and once you are son of God there is not a lot that can go wrong. If this is true its must also be true that if we are not son of God there is not a lot that can go right no matter what we believe.

jonesg

I don't know what Paul or anyone else thought but Jesus as a "fully God realised man" makes sense, after all, he did say we could do as he did.
"whosoever follows in my path..."
So we have to deny ourSELF , it makes sense because ,due to the requirement to rid the I of self, if a person can be emptied of SELF they will automatically be filled with God. Self I believe is ego.
If a person can do that, then they will know what all this God stuff is about.

A great act to me, was allowing himself, by lack of defense, to be crucified.
Whether he rose after 3 days, I don't know, I don't need it for me but maybe he did.

Clivedurdle

I take this statement as evidence that Paul was a thorough going gnostic.

But the bit "on the human level he was born of David's stock" is an interesting comment.

Is this the actual innovation of xianity? A mythical christ figure is believed to have become human, and BECOMES son of God by the Mighty Act of being raising from the dead?

Or did Paul know (or know of) a historical Jesus?

exile

Both Paul and the Gospels don't make it clear how "physical" the resurrected Christ is. He eats - but walks through locked doors, which he couldn't do before death. He is not instantly recognisable to his disciples and friends - why not?

IMO (and I know I'll get people saying that 000s of years of "tradition" is against me) is that the original story was one of visions or the appearance of a spirit, and the bodily resurrection story is an accretion.

And - why are there geneaologies of Joseph? He's not Christ's dad - or is he?

Chili

Just as physical as physical can be because the entire event takes place in the mind of Joseph the Jew who was called Jesus after rebirth.

You've got to keep in mind that Jesus died and Jesus rose. Christ was set free when Jesus died because that ended the dual nature of Jesus who's cross was his own Judaism. So we have Jesus the ego dying to Judaism on Judaism.

The upper room is the subconscious mind and the lower room is the conscious mind. Can you see how we, as rational beings, cannot enter our subconscious mind but must do just that to enter heaven?

Yes he was Christ's dad if the child that was born unto him was the fruit of the woman that had been taken from him (the woman called Mary is the womb of Joseph here betrothed to Joseph in preparation for metamorphosis).

Clivedurdle

Dis Paul know or know of a historical Jesus?

I.A.Woak

My understanding, primarily based on a biography of Paul by Bruce Chilton, Rabbi Paul , is that Paul believed, after his visionary experience (post-crucifixion), that Jesus was indeed the son of God made man. He differed from the other apostles in that he believed Gentiles could become the Children of Israel, literally, through the transformation of Baptism. In addition, he believed that Jesus arose as a "new type of human". Not a physical body as we know it, but rather, sort of a human/holy spirit hybrid. This, he taught, is what would happen to believers, through Baptism, when they died. He felt that the idea of Christ's body physically arising from the dead was absurd.

Incidentally, he got himself beat up frequently by Jews and Romans alike for this point of view. There were no "Christians" yet, but they likely would have beat him up, too. Peter didn't know what to do with him.

exile

Conforms to my hypothesis that Christianity derives 10 times as much from Paul as from the actual teachings of Jesus.

Interesting character, and an illustration of the tendency of converts to be the most zealous.

A well known Protestant fundamentalist is on his deathbed. He issues a statement that he is converting to Catholicism. He miraculously recovers and
goes on pilgrimage to Rome. He secures a private audience with the Pope.
After an hour in a room with the Pope, the monsignors waiting outside become concerned. One of them listens at the keyhole to hear the Pope say
"but - my son - I assure you I AM a Catholic!"

Clivedurdle

Welcome!

But did he think this human holy spirit hybrid was a real person who got himself executed or is it another part god part human invention?