Dogfish

If he is not a god of the dead, what's he doing resurrecting the dead for?

Johnny Skeptic

If God helped Abraham to steal land from the Canaanites, and to steal land from the Palestinians in 1948, that is sufficient reason for people to reject him.

arnoldo

So your saying the land belong to the Canaanites, right? Where do the Jews belong?

Johnny Skeptic

At the risk of being logical, Genesis 17:8, which is the foundational basis for all subsequent scriptures that deal with the occupation of Canaan, refers to THIS life, NOT to an AFTERLIFE. Genesis 17:8 says that God would give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of Canaan as an EVERLASTING covenant. The partition of Palestine failed on both counts. Are you actually saying that Abraham and most other Jews believed that Jews would never occupy all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting covenant in this life? God's protection of Jews conditional upon good behavior most certainly DOES NOT refer to an afterlife where everyone has good behavior. Why must you embarrass yourself by making jokes?

Now will you please tell us how any of Genesis 17:8 has been fulfilled?

The predictions that the Jews would be scattered were not predictions at all. They were made AFTER THE FACT, meaning that those supposed predictions were made after the Jews had already been kicked out of Canaan.

If prophecy is more of a sign to believers rather than unbelievers, how do you believe Old Testament Jews interpreted Genesis 17:8?

If prophecy is more of a sign to believers rather than unbelievers, why didn't Ezekiel mention Alexander? As it was, even though Ezekiel claimed that no less than a "king of kings" (Nebuchadnezzar), which surely indicates the expectation that the "king of kings" would defeat Tyre, would come "from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people," and would "slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee," and "shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers," and "by reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach," and "With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground," contrary to Ezekiel's expectations, Nebuchadnezzar was unable to defeat Tyre. Then, Ezekiel, or someone else, chose to cover up the fraud by adding the "many nations" part of Ezekiel 26, and the false claim in Ezekiel 29 that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre.

Another cover up occurred regarding Genesis 17:8. Contrary to what the writer of Genesis 17:8 expected, the Jews were kicked out of Canaan. That is when the supposed predictions about the scattering of Jews were written AFTER THE FACT, which obviously were not predictions at all, but observations after the fact that were disguised as prophecies.

It is utter nonsense for Christians to believe that God would tell Abraham that he would give him and all of his descendants all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting covenant conditional upon good behavior when he knew that even 4,000 years later, Jews would not have occupied all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting convenant, thereby giving generations of Jews false hopes, and causing them to wonder what it would take to please God, and causing them to wonder what percentage of Jews acting right it would take to please God, and causing them to wonder why God would punish their babies for their own disobedience.

The Bible has so many lies and deceptions in it that it is a wonder that anyone believes it who has been presented with evidence like the evidence that is available at the IIDB. If all children were presented equally with evidence from both sides, there is no doubt whatsover that the Christian church would be much small than it is today.

Even if God can predict the future, so what? If Bill Clinton could predict the future, you certainly would not worship him. You also certainly would not worship him if he indiscriminately injured and killed people and innocent animals with hurricanes like God does.

Anyway, it is obvious that God does not want people to hear the Gospel message since millions of people died without hearing it because he refused to tell them about it, and with no possible benefits for himself or for anyone else.

Johnny Skeptic

If you mean where the Jews belonged when they stole land from the Canaanites, my answer is that should have bought land, not stolen it from the Canaanites, or that they should have set up residence in an unoccupied area. Regarding the Partition of Palestine in 1948, the original partition was not fair because it granted control of Jerusalem to the Jews instead of establishing joint control of Jerusalem, or dividing Jerusalem in half between Jews and Palestinians, and because it granted a disproportionate amount of land to Jews. At that time, Palestinians were much more numerous than Jews were. I do not know what the case is today.

The conclusion is that God is a bully, a murder, a liar, and a hypocrite, and the Jews are bullies, and murderers. With parasites alone, God has murdered more people than all of the wars in history. Your moral are suspect.

spin

That doesn't follow. What was being talked about was the theft of the land and god's support of that theft.

If you mean Israelis -- you continue to mix Jews with Israelis --, where they are now, but with an equitable sharing with the Palestinians.


spin

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: Would you like to go to the GRD Forum and start a new thread about God's character? No?, I didn't think that you would. I am sure that that goes for sugarhitman as well. Actually, there is no need for you to start a new thread since there is already a thread at the GRD Forum that is titled 'Justifying BibleGod's Atrocities.' At this time, all Christians have conveniently vacated that thread. The link is http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=230295.

Johnny Skeptic

Where did the Jews belong when they were held captive in Egypt for generations and were mistreated by Pharoah, including innocent Jewish babies? The correct answer is, somewhere else.

Where did the Jews belong when Trajan killed 500,000 Jews in early part of the second century? The correct answer is, somewhere else.

Where do Christians belong when God injures and kills them with hurricanes? The correct answer is, somewhere else.

arnoldo

The conclusion is that Israel is proof of God's existence.

Johnny Skeptic

If the Jews appointed themselves to be God's chosen people, that explains why God turned his back on everyone else in the world during Old Testament times. It is quite odd that after Jesus rose from the dead, contrary to Old Testament times, all of a sudden this supposedly unchanging God wanted people all over the world to know who he SPECIFICALLY is, and ONLY if another person told them about the Gospel message. This means that God is more concerned HOW people hear the Gospel message than he is with THAT they hear the Gospel message. That does not make any sense.

A similar case regards the distribution of food. James says that if a man refuses to give food to hungry people, he is vain, and his faith is dead, and yet millions of people have died because God refused to give them food, or destroyed food with hurricanes, droughts, locusts, and other insects. Since the only way that starving people can get enough food to eat is if other people give them enough food to eat, this means that God is more concerned with HOW people get enough food to eat than he is with THAT they get enough food to eat. That does not make any sense either. What does make sense is that if a God exists, he is not the God of the Bible, or, if a God inspired the Bible, he is evil, amoral, mentally incompetent, or a benevolent but inept bungler who botched his attempts to create a much better world than the world that he created.

Any comparison between the morals of the God of the Bible and the morals of the most moral skeptics puts God in second place. If the most moral skeptics were able, they would heal sick people all over the world, including giving new limbs to amputees. There is no historical evidence that God has ever given an amputee a new limb. Why does God discriminate against amputees? Well, one obvious answer is that he wants to needlessly limit knowledge of his specific existence, with no possible benefits for himself or for anyone else.