Johnny Skeptic

If Ezekiel had mentioned Alexander, what you said would be true, but such was not the case. Why didn't Ezekiel mention Alexander? Wouldn't that have strengthened the faith of Jews and Christians?

chrisengland

Hello Johnny
Theres a couple of things I write on here wich are adressed to you ' if you could look at them and reply I would be grateful.
Thankyou
Chris

Johnny Skeptic

I meant to say "Today, some skeptics have become Christians [partly] because of what they believe are fulfilled Bible prophecies."

I was replying to arnoldo's claim that God uses prophecy to strengthen the faith of believers, when in fact prophecy also has been part of the reasons why some people have become Christians.

If Ezekiel had mentioned Alexander, that would have strenghthened the faith of Jews and Christians, and probably would have caused some skeptics to give Christianity more consideration than they have given it. As it was, generations of Jews died without seeing the Tyre prophecy fulfilled.

My main point is that if a God exists, and considered prophecy to be useful for any reasons, he probably would have already made many indisuputable prophecies thousands of years ago.

Johnny Skeptic

Yes, thanks to God. According to Christians, Micah 5:2 says that the messiah would become ruler of Israel. Jesus did not become ruler of Israel. Micah should have mentioned that Jesus would rule a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly kingdom. It also would have been helpful if he had mentioned that Pontius Pilate would become governor of Palestine, but false prophets are not able to make predictions like that.

2 Samuel 7:10 says that Jews will have a homeland of their own where no one will bother them. That is not going to happen.

James Brown

So you agree then that since Jesus hasn't fulfilled all the Messianic prophecies yet, then he can't be the Messiah.

Johnny Skeptic

But why weren't most Jews aware that Jesus was the messiah? Although you claim that is was the Jews' fault that they did not accept Jesus, if the God of the Bible exists, he could easily have prevented any confusion regarding disputes about whether or not Jesus was the messiah. All that he would have needed to do would have been to inspire Old Testament writers to write unmistakable messianic prophecies. For instance, Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the writer had said that the ruler would rule a heavenly kingdom instead of an earthly kingdom, that would have helped a lot. In addition, regarding the Pharisees' claims that Jesus healed people by the power of Beelzebub, if an Old Testament writer had said that the messiah would heal people by the power of God, that would have helped a lot. Further, if an Old Testament writer had said that the messiah's name would be Jesus, and that his mother would be Mary, that Pontius Pilate would become governor of Palestine, and that the messiah would be crucified, and rise from the dead, that would have helped a lot.

Now those are just a few of many examples of where God could easily have prevented disputes regarding whether or not Jesus was the messiah. A God would not have any trouble at all preventing disputes about anything, including slavery. Jefferson Davis was President of the Southern Confederacy. He was a Christian. He believed that the Bible endorses slavery, which it does. Even if the Bible did not endorse slavery, God could easily have prevented Davis from believing that the Bible endorses slavery. First of all, he could have inspired Bible writers to write more clearly about slavery. Second of all, he could have appeared to Davis in a dream and told him that slavery is wrong. Third of all, he could have sent a tangible angel to tell Davis that slavery is wrong.

Would the Tyre prophecy have been less disputable if Ezekiel had mentioned Alexander?

In the NASB, 2 Samuel 7:10 says "I will fix a place for my people Israel; I will plant them so that they may dwell in their place without further disturbance. Neither shall the wicked continue to afflict them as they did of old." The Partition of Palestine most certainly did not fulfill that prophecy, and it never will since the Jews are surrounded by hostile neighbors, not to mention terrorists who live in Israel, and some Muslim countries that are developing nuclear weapons. Since 2 Samuel 7:10 can never be fulfilled in this life, and since it refers to this life, it is a false prophecy. If you claim that the Israelis will make peace with Muslims, I will remind you that the New Testament says that there will always be wars and rumors of war in this life. That claim most certainly did not exclude the Middle East.

Old Testament Jews were deceived by the writer of 2 Samuel. They definitely expected that eventually, IN THIS LIFE, Jews would have a homeland where they would not be bothered by anyone. That most certainly is not going to happen.

If the Bible had contained many accurate predictions regarding when and where a lot of natural diasters would occur that have occured, would Bible prophecy be a lot easier to defend?

If President Bush predicted when and where the next hurricane would occur, and all of the world media let people know about his prediction, if his prediction came true, it is reasonable to assume that at least 90% of the people who knew about the prediction would believe that he knew in advance when and where the hurricane would occur. If he continued to make accurate predictions, pretty soon almost everyone in the world would believe that he could predict the future.

If the God of the Bible exists, he would easily have been able to convince every mentally competent person in the world that he is able to predict the future thousands of years ago. Thus, you cannot intelligently argue that God uses prophecy as a sign for believers, or unbelievers.

Your claim that God uses prophecy to strenghthen the faith of believers does not always work. No Jew who lived during Ezekiel's time saw the Tyre prophecy fulfilled, nor did any Jew for several more generations. If anything, that weakened the faith of the Jews, and strengthened the faith of the Tyrians, who must have concluded that either the God of the Bible is not all-powerful, or more likely that he does not exist. When Alexander finally defeated Tyre, lots of Jews must have wondered why Ezekiel did not mention Alexander. Many Jews who lived during Ezekiel's time would also have wondered why Ezekiel predicted that "a king of kings" would go down the streets of Tyre, and tear down its towers, only to fail to defeat Tyre, and they would have wondered why God broke his word to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre like God promised[/QUOTE]

Johnny Skeptic

If President Bush was able to predict anything that he wanted to predict, and he wanted to convince Americans that he could predict the future, how long would it take him to convince at least 90% of Americans that he could predict the future?

If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kindgom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, would there have been just as many disputes over who Jesus was?

Why does God predict the future?

Johnny Skeptic

If Micah had predicted that the messiah would rule a heavenly kindgom instead of an earthly kingdom like Micah misled the Jews to believe, and had predicted that the messiah would heal people, and that the messiah would be crucified, buried, and rise from the dead in three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Herod would become the King of Judea, surely more Jews would have accepted Jesus. Historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon less convincing evidence than that.

Johnny Skeptic

Well of course, and even more so. If Ezekiel had predicted that Alexander would defeat Tyre, that would have strengthened the faith of Jews after the fact much more than the Tyre prophecy did. One of your problems is that there is not one single indisputable after the fact prophecy in the entire Bible. An example of an indisputable prophecy would be a prediction when and where a natural disaster would occur, month, day, and year. Since the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why there is not one single indisputable prophecy in the entire Bible. No rational God would cause confusion by inspiring disputable prophecies when he could easily inspire indisputable prophecies. You are living in a fantasy world.

Aside from the issue of prophecy, you want people to accept a God who only wants people to hear the Gospel message if another person tells them about it, and only wants people to have enough food to eat if they are able to obtain it through human effort, which is exactly what the case would be if he did not exist.

JDw_bass_player

I think the point that everyone is missing about prophetic fulfillment by the birth, life, ministry, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is the fact that he fulfilled prophecies that were made long before his life or that of his parents by the very act of his birth.
1. The fact that he was born of a virgin (which sceptics can easily challenge, I admit)
2. His birthplace, Bethlehem
3. His relationship to the line of King David
4. His lifetime while the temple was still standing (which was until approximately 70 A.D.)
5. The manner of his betrayal (by a friend and for 30 pieces of silver, which would eventually be cast to the ground in the temple)
6. The mode of death (crucifixion), which was not a means of capital punishment at the time the prophecy was made
7. The fact that his bones were not broken, as were those of the two criminals he was cruficied between. (Crucifixion between 2 criminals was another prophecy made about the Messiah during the OT)
8. His clothes would be divided and have lots cast for them

These are only a select few of the prophecies fulfilled by the life and death of Christ. The only way to argue their validity is to dispute the validity of the Gospels which record the occurrence of the events that fulfilled them. It is, however, noteworthy to say that most historians will agree that the Gospels are as much or more historically accurate than other highly respected historical documents and texts as they are verifiable according to secular history, and the corresponding information recorded in the Gospels. They were written by eyewitnesses of the events, during the lifetimes of other eyewitnesses during a time and in a culture when accuracy of events was very important as the culture had been dominated by oral history for much of its lifetime. They were also written in the presence of those who despised the very message contained in the gospels(Jewish Clergy such as the Sanhedrin), yet noone came forward to argue the truth of the historical account that was given about the life of Christ or his minisrty (i.e. his miracles). If you hated what someone was about, and you saw an opportunity to disprove the account that individual gave, would it not make sense for you to do so, both from a personal perspective as well as a moral one? The point is this, Jesus Christ fulfilled multiple prophecies without an ability to consciously do so, and it was recorded in a time and place and in the presence of those who could have easily disproven and prevented the spread of false information if the facts were actually misrepresented.