Freethought & Rationalism Archive

myndreach · 07-17-2004, 11:11 AM

How do you argue with this? I have a xian friend who I discuss theology with almost every night at work.

He was mentioning how his church doesn't play instruments. I say why not? He says the bible doesn't say you can. I tell him it does in the old testament. He says, what does that have to do with the new church.

He has the belief as most fundies do that the old law doesn't apply. It's so silly and illogical...that's clearly not what jesus teaches, at least to me. He's explained his viewpoint and I told him that I can see how he sees it, but I think that it can be seen otherwise as well.

I say that, well, there are women prophets in the OT. He says that the new says they can't be prophets anymore, which it does. He sees it as a change, I see it as a contradiction.

I say the NT doesn't say you CAN'T use instruments, he says well, it doesn't say you CAN. Then couldn't I suggest that he can't sit down in church, etc. etc.? If the OT doesn't apply, then the commandments don't. The only commandments Jesus taught are not being angry at your brother, and to love god, and not defraud people. So is it okay to be a hitman and kill someone for money as long as you're not mad?

I've got it figured out basically, just wanting further opinions and maybe a more cohesive argument. Thanks! Sorry for rambling!

http://atheistbiblestudy.com

Toto · 07-17-2004, 01:02 PM

If you thought it productive to argue with people like that, you could point out that there are female prophets in the New Testament, that St. Paul worked with women and preached with women, even though some later church copying saw fit to add a prohibition against women speaking in church.

Some modern churches ban music, dancing, all forms of display, and drinking wine, even though the Bible clearly protrays music, dance, and recommends wine. I don't know how they rationalize those prohibitions.

myndreach · 07-17-2004, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

If you thought it productive to argue with people like that, you could point out that there are female prophets in the New Testament, that St. Paul worked with women and preached with women, even though some later church copying saw fit to add a prohibition against women speaking in church.

Some modern churches ban music, dancing, all forms of display, and drinking wine, even though the Bible clearly protrays music, dance, and recommends wine. I don't know how they rationalize those prohibitions.

Where are the references to female prophets in the new testament?

Steven Carr · 07-17-2004, 01:46 PM

Isn't tithing an Old Testament thing?

Is it mentioned in the New Testament?

Matthew 5
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Have heaven and earth disappeared?

Matthew 7 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The Law is summed up in that commandment, which hardly means that the Law is abolished. From the Great Commandment, you should be able to work out the rest of the Law.

myndreach · 07-18-2004, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Isn't tithing an Old Testament thing?

Is it mentioned in the New Testament?

Matthew 5
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Have heaven and earth disappeared?

Matthew 7 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The Law is summed up in that commandment, which hardly means that the Law is abolished. From the Great Commandment, you should be able to work out the rest of the Law.

Yeah I've quoted Matthew 5 to him many times...he says that since it says "until all is fulfilled", or accomplished in your translation, that it is done. Jesus coming and dying for our sins is it being fulfilled. It's silly, because I've all the things you've said but he just doesn't want to see it.

The female prophets I've found in the NT are Anna (luke 2:36) and Phillips 4 daughters (acts 21:8-9)

Evangelion · 07-18-2004, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myndreach

He has the belief as most fundies do that the old law doesn't apply. It's so silly and illogical...that's clearly not what jesus teaches, at least to me.

Try these:

Quote:

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The cessation of the Law is implicit in his reassurance that he has not come to destroy it. Instead, Christ fulfilled the law, which is why it is not binding upon Christians.

His injunction in verse 19...

Quote:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

...refers only to the short period before his passion. After that, the Law would cease to be binding.

In Luke 16 he is even more explicit:

Quote:

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

The Law and the prophets were until John. Why? Because with John's mission complete, Jesus' mission had begun.

And it was Jesus' mission to fulfill the Law, which he finally did at his passion.

mrmoderate · 07-18-2004, 07:14 PM

Tell your misguided friend that the New Testament does not say you can drive or ride in vehicles either so you expect to see them walking wherever they go.

BioBeing · 07-18-2004, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelion

The cessation of the Law is implicit in his reassurance that he has not come to destroy it. Instead, Christ fulfilled the law, which is why it is not binding upon Christians.

I understand fulfilling a prophecy, but how, exactly, does one fulfil a law? What does this mean?

Steven Carr · 07-18-2004, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelion

In Luke 16 he is even more explicit:

The Law and the prophets were until John. Why? Because with John's mission complete, Jesus' mission had begun.

And it was Jesus' mission to fulfill the Law, which he finally did at his passion.

The Law and the pophets were 'until John'. You mean the Law ended wen John's mission was complete?

Steven Carr · 07-18-2004, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BioBeing

I understand fulfilling a prophecy, but how, exactly, does one fulfil a law? What does this mean?

It means Christians no longer have to love their neighbour, as that was part of the law.

Jesus commandments to follow the Law only applied until he fulfilled it.

07-17-2004, 11:11 AM	#1
myndreach Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: germany, usaf Posts: 84	Frustrating...old law vs. new How do you argue with this? I have a xian friend who I discuss theology with almost every night at work. He was mentioning how his church doesn't play instruments. I say why not? He says the bible doesn't say you can. I tell him it does in the old testament. He says, what does that have to do with the new church. He has the belief as most fundies do that the old law doesn't apply. It's so silly and illogical...that's clearly not what jesus teaches, at least to me. He's explained his viewpoint and I told him that I can see how he sees it, but I think that it can be seen otherwise as well. I say that, well, there are women prophets in the OT. He says that the new says they can't be prophets anymore, which it does. He sees it as a change, I see it as a contradiction. I say the NT doesn't say you CAN'T use instruments, he says well, it doesn't say you CAN. Then couldn't I suggest that he can't sit down in church, etc. etc.? If the OT doesn't apply, then the commandments don't. The only commandments Jesus taught are not being angry at your brother, and to love god, and not defraud people. So is it okay to be a hitman and kill someone for money as long as you're not mad? I've got it figured out basically, just wanting further opinions and maybe a more cohesive argument. Thanks! Sorry for rambling! http://atheistbiblestudy.com

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07-17-2004, 01:02 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	If you thought it productive to argue with people like that, you could point out that there are female prophets in the New Testament, that St. Paul worked with women and preached with women, even though some later church copying saw fit to add a prohibition against women speaking in church. Some modern churches ban music, dancing, all forms of display, and drinking wine, even though the Bible clearly protrays music, dance, and recommends wine. I don't know how they rationalize those prohibitions.

07-17-2004, 01:46 PM	#4
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Isn't tithing an Old Testament thing? Is it mentioned in the New Testament? Matthew 5 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Have heaven and earth disappeared? Matthew 7 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. The Law is summed up in that commandment, which hardly means that the Law is abolished. From the Great Commandment, you should be able to work out the rest of the Law.

07-18-2004, 07:14 PM	#7
mrmoderate Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Baltimore/DC area Posts: 1,306	Tell your misguided friend that the New Testament does not say you can drive or ride in vehicles either so you expect to see them walking wherever they go.

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