Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 02-13-2005, 05:44 PM

There's some kind of literary relationship between Mark 15:40-7 and Mark 16:1-8. I'm toying with it as a doublet for now, but it may prove to be a chiasm.

The passages run (RSV):

42: And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43: Joseph of Arimathe'a, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus. 44: And Pilate wondered if he were already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him whether he was already dead. 45: And when he learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the body to Joseph.46: And he bought a linen shroud, and taking him down, wrapped him in the linen shroud, and laid him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. 47: Mary Mag'dalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid. 1: And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. 2: And very early on the first day of the week they went to the tomb when the sun had risen. 3: And they were saying to one another, "Who will roll away the stone for us from the door of the tomb?" 4: And looking up, they saw that the stone was rolled back; -- it was very large. 5: And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe; and they were amazed.6: And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen, he is not here; see the place where they laid him. 7: But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you." 8: And they went out and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid.

I've constructed a doublet but it doesn't work very well in the interior.

Mark 15:40-47
Mark 16:1-8

40: There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salo'me,
1a: And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me...

41: who, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered to him; and also many other women who came up with him to Jerusalem. 1b:....bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.

42: And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
2: And very early on the first day of the week they went to the tomb when the sun had risen.

43: Joseph of Arimathe'a, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus.
3: And they were saying to one another, "Who will roll away the stone for us from the door of the tomb?" 4: And looking up, they saw that the stone was rolled back; -- it was very large.

44: And Pilate wondered if he were already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him whether he was already dead.
5: And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe; and they were amazed.

45: And when he learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the body to Joseph.
6: And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen, he is not here; see the place where they laid him.

46: And he bought a linen shroud, and taking him down, wrapped him in the linen shroud, and laid him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a stone against the door of the tomb.
7: But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you."

47: Mary Mag'dalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.
8: And they went out and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid.

A chiasm is suggested by two possible brackets that deal with fear and speaking:

43: Joseph of Arimathe'a, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus.
8: And they went out and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid.

In this bracket, Joseph's courage is opposed to the women's fear, and Joseph's asking is opposed to their silence. There may be a chiastic structure lurking in there.

Any help?

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-13-2005, 06:34 PM

Are you sure that courage and fear are the only possibilities for opposition here? What about a dichotomy related to the body. (The body is claimed-the body is lost?)

Vorkosigan · 02-13-2005, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Are you sure that courage and fear are the only possibilities for opposition here? What about a dichotomy related to the body. (The body is claimed-the body is lost?)

Yeah, someone just commented on my Blog and said it is a chiasm and left a reference. So now I have a puzzle to solve.

Peter Kirby · 02-13-2005, 10:46 PM

Link to your blog?

best,
Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan · 02-13-2005, 11:29 PM

My Christianity blog is The Sword. I just started it and am still building it. I was reading Stephen Carlson's great blog, and another friend of mine, Scott Sommers, who runs a Taiwan Language teaching blog that is really great, and got all inspired (started a Taiwan blog too). Being on vacation, I actually have some time; classes start next Monday so my life will become compressed in a hurry then. I don't know where it will go; sometimes it seems like mental masturbation, like typing to a forum of one. But I'd like to use it for longer articles and essays.

Vorkosigan

andrewcriddle · 02-14-2005, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

My Christianity blog is The Sword. I just started it and am still building it. I was reading Stephen Carlson's great blog, and another friend of mine, Scott Sommers, who runs a Taiwan Language teaching blog that is really great, and got all inspired (started a Taiwan blog too).

Stephen Carlson blogs The Sword at http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2...log-sword.html

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan · 02-14-2005, 07:36 AM

Scary. How did Carlson find it? It's only been up a few days and I hadn't told anyone. Ah well...off to writing.

S.C.Carlson · 02-14-2005, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Scary. How did Carlson find it? It's only been up a few days and I hadn't told anyone. Ah well...off to writing.

I have a Bloglines search feed that highlights any blog post with the phrase "synoptic problem" in it. Yours came up.

Stephen

Vorkosigan · 02-14-2005, 03:13 PM

Thanks! Welcome to II, BTW. And thanks for the very kind comments on the blog.

Ted Hoffman · 02-15-2005, 09:50 PM

Michael, since this thread has been derailed anyway, and since Carlson is here, I hope I can take this opportunity to ask Carlson a question - on Goulder "Two Significant Minor Agreements".
My main research area of interest is Nazareth and my inquiry arises from the "Who Hit You" section of the article.

Question: "What does Carlson mean when he writes that "the exegetical manipulations Goulder cites are too plastic"?
This term "plastic" - does it have a specific meaning because I note Carlson writes that its a problem in any source hypothesis.

Welcoma aboard IIDB Carlson. Your registration has been long overdue. Your blog, alongside Goodacre's and the other 'active' NT blogs, a list which Michael's blog now joins, have very interested readers. Keep up the brilliant work.

02-13-2005, 05:44 PM	#1
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Is Mark 15:40-7 a Doublet of Mark 16:1-8? or a Chiasm? There's some kind of literary relationship between Mark 15:40-7 and Mark 16:1-8. I'm toying with it as a doublet for now, but it may prove to be a chiasm. The passages run (RSV): 42: And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43: Joseph of Arimathe'a, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus. 44: And Pilate wondered if he were already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him whether he was already dead. 45: And when he learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the body to Joseph.46: And he bought a linen shroud, and taking him down, wrapped him in the linen shroud, and laid him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. 47: Mary Mag'dalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid. 1: And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. 2: And very early on the first day of the week they went to the tomb when the sun had risen. 3: And they were saying to one another, "Who will roll away the stone for us from the door of the tomb?" 4: And looking up, they saw that the stone was rolled back; -- it was very large. 5: And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe; and they were amazed.6: And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen, he is not here; see the place where they laid him. 7: But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you." 8: And they went out and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid. I've constructed a doublet but it doesn't work very well in the interior. Mark 15:40-47 Mark 16:1-8 40: There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salo'me, 1a: And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me... 41: who, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered to him; and also many other women who came up with him to Jerusalem. 1b:....bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. 42: And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 2: And very early on the first day of the week they went to the tomb when the sun had risen. 43: Joseph of Arimathe'a, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus. 3: And they were saying to one another, "Who will roll away the stone for us from the door of the tomb?" 4: And looking up, they saw that the stone was rolled back; -- it was very large. 44: And Pilate wondered if he were already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him whether he was already dead. 5: And entering the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe; and they were amazed. 45: And when he learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the body to Joseph. 6: And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen, he is not here; see the place where they laid him. 46: And he bought a linen shroud, and taking him down, wrapped him in the linen shroud, and laid him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. 7: But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you." 47: Mary Mag'dalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid. 8: And they went out and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid. A chiasm is suggested by two possible brackets that deal with fear and speaking: 43: Joseph of Arimathe'a, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus. 8: And they went out and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid. In this bracket, Joseph's courage is opposed to the women's fear, and Joseph's asking is opposed to their silence. There may be a chiastic structure lurking in there. Any help?

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02-13-2005, 06:34 PM	#2
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Are you sure that courage and fear are the only possibilities for opposition here? What about a dichotomy related to the body. (The body is claimed-the body is lost?)

02-13-2005, 10:46 PM	#4
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Link to your blog? best, Peter Kirby

02-13-2005, 11:29 PM	#5
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	My Christianity blog is The Sword. I just started it and am still building it. I was reading Stephen Carlson's great blog, and another friend of mine, Scott Sommers, who runs a Taiwan Language teaching blog that is really great, and got all inspired (started a Taiwan blog too). Being on vacation, I actually have some time; classes start next Monday so my life will become compressed in a hurry then. I don't know where it will go; sometimes it seems like mental masturbation, like typing to a forum of one. But I'd like to use it for longer articles and essays. Vorkosigan

02-14-2005, 07:36 AM	#7
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Scary. How did Carlson find it? It's only been up a few days and I hadn't told anyone. Ah well...off to writing.

02-14-2005, 03:13 PM	#9
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Thanks! Welcome to II, BTW. And thanks for the very kind comments on the blog.

02-15-2005, 09:50 PM	#10
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Michael, since this thread has been derailed anyway, and since Carlson is here, I hope I can take this opportunity to ask Carlson a question - on Goulder "Two Significant Minor Agreements". My main research area of interest is Nazareth and my inquiry arises from the "Who Hit You" section of the article. Question: "What does Carlson mean when he writes that "the exegetical manipulations Goulder cites are too plastic"? This term "plastic" - does it have a specific meaning because I note Carlson writes that its a problem in any source hypothesis. Welcoma aboard IIDB Carlson. Your registration has been long overdue. Your blog, alongside Goodacre's and the other 'active' NT blogs, a list which Michael's blog now joins, have very interested readers. Keep up the brilliant work.

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