sotto voce

But what went wrong? Where is the ark of the covenant? Where is the Tabernacle? Where is there reason to remember Moses, Abraham and Jacob?

Sheshbazzar

Nothing went 'wrong'. First of all the Torah is an ancient Hebrew-Israelite 'origins' tale.
There never was any actual Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, nor any mass Exodus from Egypt.
And no Yahweh ever gave Moses any engraved stone tablets.

Certainly the latter Levitical priests fashioned an 'ark' and a Temple but there were never any stone tablets from any 'Moses', or any rod of 'Aaron' that had budded inside of it.
All of these things were political/religious propaganda symbols and metaphors gathered and written to unify a quite diverse ancient tribal people into a cohesive social group with a common 'history' and self-identity, with one Elohim and his 'anointed' recognized leaders with aspirations and social goals as a nation among the nations of the earth.

But not as though all of this were simply useless lies, as the tales deal with human ethics and human conceptions of right and wrong, and what is acceptable and unacceptable, and 'sin' the matter being expressed in allegorical stories, and in metaphorical symbols that have reference to human nature and that apply to every intelligent human on earth in some manner.

Where is the Tabernacle? In truth right where it has always been, for your own body is that Tabernacle and the Temple of Yahweh Elohim. The Ark of The Covenant is within your 'heart', where you place the most 'set-apart' 'Holy' thoughts and the ethics which make you the manner of Temple you are.
Good and upright thoughts, ethics, and love for your fellow man make for a Holy Temple. Evil thoughts and plots, and hatreds being harbored against others can turn you into a Temple of demons where Satan sits and rules in power over ones life.
Satan and evil have no power at all unless they can find a Temple in which to lodge and work from, which Temple you are, if you give way to evil thoughts and to unjust ethics.

The symbolic significance of enshrining the Name within the Temple and sanctifying it, and in keeping it carefully 'set-apart' and unapproachable is the barring of the entry into that 'set-apart' 'Holy place' of anything which is 'unclean' or 'polluted'.
(What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean' (Matt 15:11)

These things of religious Judaism are not to be confused with being actual Jewish history, they were written as spiritual lessons in ethics.

As a Hebrew, I do not believe in the existence of any literal Yahweh, as one with 'miracles' interfering in the affairs of men.
But the Name 'Yahweh' as being the Name is a cherished symbol of the highest aspirations and ethics that a man can hold.

I can, like any other person, easily doubt the existence of any actual heaven dwelling deity. But the Name יהוה in and of itself is linked with reality, and with maintaing an honest nature with regard to the truth, and is a certifiable FACT of Hebrew and Jewish history, religion, and faith.

Thus I can believe in the endurance and in the validity of The Name (Ha'Shem) יהוה with the same confidence as I have in the existence of the earth beneath my feet, or the sun in the sky above.
The NAME itself is something that I simply cannot doubt, because it is as real as my own hand, or my breath.

You may oft see me mock or lampoon the name 'Jeezus' but you will never find me write or speak a word against the Hebrew יהושע no matter how it is respectfully spelled or pronounced in English (as long as it retains the 'sh' sound of the letter ש 'shin' (Judges 12:6)

The mythical man of the NT is of little consequence to me, but his NAME is everything!
Number one in this, is this Name is my הושע "hoshua" 'Deliverance' from the darkness and ignorance of this age with its false counterfeit 'son of god' which is known by another presently more popular perverted name.

sotto voce

What is a Hebrew?

Sheshbazzar

If you don't know, you will have to find out. -or not. Your gain or your loss.

sotto voce

'You' being the whole world. Chambers Dictionary, the stand-by of professional writers, has this:

'Hebrew — noun a member of an ancient Semitic people, originally based in Palestine.'

Now, as some of us know, dictionaries are not always the best resources when it comes to matters high and theological. So can you tell us if Chambers needs an email with a correction of this entry? I'm sure they are most interested in comments from responsible, well-informed people, rather than time-wasters. To save time, we will assume that your agreement with it is complete, unless we read otherwise.

Sheshbazzar

If you wish to think the entry in 'Chambers Dctionary' presents the full and final explantion of what a Hebrew is, that is your problem.

Did you ever look up the word in your Bible? Do you even have one?

sotto voce

Nobody would suppose that it was. Let's not make unreasonable criteria.

You agree that this entry is not erroneous, and Israelites were in Palestine at an early date. So what went wrong? Where are the ark and the Tabernacle? Surely the absence of the ark would point to an end of Law; and the absence of the Tabernacle/Temple would point to the advent of the Messiah of whom they were both prophetic. So if both are absent, is there a practical alternative to the view that they were disposed of when no longer useful, because the Messiah was in fact Jesus of Nazareth?

Or is the notion of the Messiah sliced out of your Bible?

Why would I have a Bible, when people, apparently conveniently, pick only the bits they like out of it? Especially people who call themselves Jews. And they often admit it, too. So why the double standards?

Sheshbazzar

You wish.

Perhaps because you might actually care and read what it contains? And learn and know what The Scriptures say The Holy One of Israel has in store?
You know, be a bit like those faithful Bereans who SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY to learn and know whether those things were so?

You wouldn't need me prod you to do this if you had the least bit of genuine and unfeigned love for the Heavenly Father and His Eternal words.
Instead you got your eyes fastened on a dead snake on a stick for your god.

Not a bit. But The Messiah of Israel is not that damned dead snake on a stick christian 'christ' idol that The Whore and Her whore daughters hang around their necks.

Obviously you have very little understanding of the Bible, and choose to overlook the hundreds of verses in Bible that indicate that The Law of Yahweh is PERFECT and Eternal and will be observed in the World to come.
Try fitting Zechariah 14 into your pipe, or Ezekiel 45 or 47th chapters, or Psalms 19:7-8 and 111:6-10 or Isaiah 8:9-20 or 66:15-17-23. for a few.

You do not even understand The 'Old Covenant', thus you cannot understand the New, being so blind in your conceits that you cannot even see your own hand in front of your face.

sotto voce

This is not a playground for under-twelves.

The ark contained Law. So when the ark was removed, it was a signal that Law was inadequate. For people whose ancestry was founded on one whose justification was not by Law, but by faith, that must have been indication that the path was now clear for the messiah who would provide justification by faith. So righteousness without the Law worked for God in Abraham's day, in Israel's day, and in Joseph's day, and it was to work again, because Law very evidently did not work.

So the Messiah was in fact Jesus of Nazareth? Because a messiah has nothing to come back to now.

sotto voce

And no Tabernacle, no Temple. Shit.

I s'ppose we could stop wasting time here and go fishing.