Vorkosigan

Mark 14:1 begins a cascade of chiasms that ends with 16:2. Here they are. I'll put up the explanations later tonight, but the underlying thematic schema should be obvious. I just figured all this out last night, so I don't have all the keyword sequences down yet.

andrewcriddle

I'm using this fascinating full version of the proposed chiastic structure to discuss the whole issue of chiasms in the Marcan passion narrative.

After examining the structures that Vorkosigan has proposed I can't help feeling that there is something real here, that the Markan Passion Narrative does allow one to construct chiasms more easily than one would prima facie expect.

On the other hand the chiasms are sufficiently non-obvious (even after being pointed out) IMHO for it to be unlikely that Mark expected his readers to identify the suggested patterns.

I've been wondering whether there could be patterns of composition that would produce chiasm like structures without this being deliberately intended.

One possibility is that Mark had a previous narrative of various successive episodes in the passion narrative and that he has expanded this by inserting into the middle of the episodes in the pre-Markan narrative new material.

IMHO this could produce a chiasm like effect without this being deliberately and consciously intended.

Andrew Criddle

Storm

But do authors expect readers to identify patterns like this or other literary devices or are they there to evoke a response in the reader, possible unconsciously?

Vorkosigan

Yes, because the tension proposed in the beginning of any narrative sequence has to be resolved somewhere. That's why I've tried to set these up with both thematic links and keyword links, along with trying to use a consistent method that will almost always produce Markan chiasms, which I outlined in the other post.

Vivisector

Vork,

Please forgive what might be a silly question, but ... I've been following your posts with great interest, as well as others' comments. One of the ideas that occurred to me was that, maybe this is simply how people were taught to write in those days. Just as some children nowadays might be taught a generic, formulaic structure for use in composing paragraphs, perhaps "Mark" was taught the chiasm as a composition technique. I think you answered this in the affirmative in a recent post.

My question is, what does it all mean, apart from perhaps the fact that the author learned this technique and used it often in GMk?

Cheers,

V.

Vorkosigan

I'll get back to you tomorrow, a long answer is required.

Vorkosigan

Celsus

You're quite right. Form says nothing about the reliability/historicity of the texts (part of why I don't understand the whole debate about the "we" passage in Acts). One way of looking at chiastic structures in the Hebrew Bible is to think of them as "paragraphs", with slightly more restrictive rules. This is certainly how they were used in the HB, but it's less clear of usage in this manner in the classics. On the other hand, there are some awesome word-plays inside small chiastic units that a skilled writer could marshal:

drkt dt drdrk "Your everlasting dominion" in Ugaritic (KTU 1.2 VI 10) is both alliterative and chiastic. Fortunately, not all chiasms require you to know the original language it was in to appreciate the beauty. See if you can spot the chiasm in Ps 1:1-5 (step 1: ignore verse numbers). Mark Smith argued that the entire Pentateuch is arranged in a ginormous chiastic macrostructure, but I haven't read the argument yet.

Joel

Vivisector

I understand, and I'll look forward to it. The time monster is about to sink its teeth into me as well. I did note your application of chiastic structure to the ending of Mark, which struck me as an excellent application.

Cheers,

V.

JoeWallack

JW:
Great work here Vork. You've done more to advance Christian Bible scholarship in the last two weeks than Christian Bible scholarship has done in the last two thousand years. Apparently you have to Not Believe Jesus in order to properly "understand" him. An Irony that I think "Mark" would really appreciate. Of course nothing here qualifies as "good evidence" since it's 2,000 years old and "preserved" by Liars for Jesus. I think the following though is a possible Chiasm for the original Markan Ending. Enjoy!:

15: (KJV)
34 "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Abandoned Messenger

35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down. Misunderstanding

37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Ghost lost

38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. Opening created

39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. Rising of the Son

40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
41 (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem. Maries and Salome

42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, "Preparation Day"

43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. Desire to be given Jesus

44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. Pilate Pivot

45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. Gives Jesus.

46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre. "Preparation Day"

47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.
1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. Maries and Salome

2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. Rising of the Sun

3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great. Opening created

5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. Ghost found

6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. Misunderstanding

8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid. Abandoned Messenger


JW:
Note the following which all fits "Mark's" primary objective of Ironic Literary Contrivance (even more important than "Mark's" Jesus):

1) "Mark's" Jesus thinks he's been forsaken too. ReMarkable! So even the Hero in the story didn't "see" that he really was the Hero. How Ironic (and Oedipul).

2) "Mark's" Jesus only had the Power to Save others, not himself. This had to be changed by the others like "John" though so Jesus could be like Pee-Wee, son of Herman. He could have Saved himself. He just didn't want to.

3) "The Jews" Ironically comment that Jesus could Save others but not himself. This is one of "Mark's" Ironic Prophecy Fulfillments. The Prophecy is correct but not for the reason you think.

4) Looking through the Prophecy Fulfillment claims of "Mark", most (all?) of them have Irony involved. Not very persuasive for Marketing purposes. Needs Editing for some straight forward prophecy fulfillment.

5) "The Preparation Day" was inspired. It was Preparation Day for the Sabbath and for the Son of Man who the Sabbath was made for.

6) The two biggest problems for "Orthodox" Christianity, 15:34, Jesus/God gives up, and 16:8, All followers give up Jesus/God cannot be reconciled with Christian Theology's "Historical Reconstruction". It fits nicely though with the Ironicly Contrived Fiction making 16:8 a Logical ending as it completes the Chiastic structure. I await Rick Sumner's Chiastic arrangement of 16:9-20.



Joseph

judge

Wow!

Wait until you begin to look at the many many structures, verse and poetry in the gospels in Aramaic and see the additional features not present in the greek versions!