Freethought & Rationalism Archive

philbar · 07-29-2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avatar

The burden of proof is on you to prove that they do exist...not on us to disprove them. All you have are anecdotes and second-hand tales. Prove that demons and devils exist first, then I'll take your anecdotes a little more seriously.

BTW: Just because the Bible says these things exist is not proof either...it is merely more anecdotal evidence.

Anneliese Michel (September 21, 1952 - June 30, 1976) was a German college student who died during an exorcism. Her parents and the two Bavarian priests who carried out the exorcism were later convicted. Her story was turned into a movie The Exorcism Of Emily Rose.

Jayrok · 07-29-2006, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

Anneliese Michel (September 21, 1952 - June 30, 1976) was a German college student who died during an exorcism. Her parents and the two Bavarian priests who carried out the exorcism were later convicted. Her story was turned into a movie The Exorcism Of Emily Rose.

From your wiki source:

Quote:

The demons that are said to have possesed Anneliese are Lucifer (the devil himself), Cain, Nero, Judas, Fleischmann (who might have been a disgraced priest in Franken, living in the 17th Century), and Hitler.

So Lucifer, Cain, Nero, Judas, Fleischmann... and Hitler possessed this woman. MMM-K

philbar · 07-29-2006, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

So Lucifer, Cain, Nero, Judas, Fleischmann... and Hitler possessed this woman. MMM-K

Or the demons were mocking the question when they were asked for their name.

Jayrok · 07-29-2006, 11:22 PM

To me demonic or Satanic possession on a human is rediculously stupid on Satan's part. According to the bible, people are destined for hell simply for being born (because of Adam's sin, everyone else is tainted and in need of a saviour). Satan doesn't have to possess anyone to harvest souls for Hell.

All possession does is expose himself as real to those involved. In other words, if Satan is real, then God is real. If people witness satanic possession, that might cause them to believe and seek God.. would it not? Those people might otherwise be skeptical and as such, burn in hell anyway (if christianity is real/true). If Satan remained hidden, he'd get plenty of mankind to fall with him. By exposing himself, he's taking a chance on proving God exists in a society that is otherwise skeptical.

So if this is true, Satan is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

philbar · 07-30-2006, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

To me demonic or Satanic possession on a human is rediculously stupid on Satan's part. According to the bible, people are destined for hell simply for being born (because of Adam's sin, everyone else is tainted and in need of a saviour). Satan doesn't have to possess anyone to harvest souls for Hell.

All possession does is expose himself as real to those involved. In other words, if Satan is real, then God is real. If people witness satanic possession, that might cause them to believe and seek God.. would it not? Those people might otherwise be skeptical and as such, burn in hell anyway (if christianity is real/true). If Satan remained hidden, he'd get plenty of mankind to fall with him. By exposing himself, he's taking a chance on proving God exists in a society that is otherwise skeptical.

So if this is true, Satan is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Satan is a deceiver he can allow possessions and still keep people from God. Even if proof of Satan existed, it doesn't necessarily prove God. Furthermore, Satan is more occupied with getting back at God and becoming powerful again that possessions interest him. Possessions give Satan control and allows him to destroy some more of God's good world.

Jack the Bodiless · 07-31-2006, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Incorrect. In Genesis 2:17, God did indeed lie, in an attempt to prevent Adam and Eve from eating the fruit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

You couldn't be more wrong!

Matthew 10:28 - Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:28 is not in the Book of Genesis. It is also completely irrelevant to this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

Revelation 2:11 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

Revelation 2:11 is not in the Book of Genesis. It is also completely irrelevant to this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

Revelation 20:6 - Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 is not in the Book of Genesis. It is also completely irrelevant to this issue.

A pattern is emerging here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

Revelation 20:14 - Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Guess what? Revelation 20:14 is not in the Book of Genesis. It is also completely irrelevant to this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

Revelation 21:8 - "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Revelation 21:8 is not in the Book of Genesis. It is also completely irrelevant to this issue.

The issue we were discussing is God's lie to Adam and Eve in Genesis 2:17. The lie that the fruit would kill them immediately, rather than "opening their eyes" and granting them knowledge (as the Serpent correctly stated).

philbar · 07-31-2006, 10:14 AM

Jack the Bodiless - <edit> How can you throw away the majority of the passages quoted with the excuse "it's not in the Book of Genesis". I guess we can't look to physics and chemistry to explain biology because in biology, biology is the only thing that matters.

I can't help but laugh at you. Sorry, I really don't mean to offend you.

Ubercat · 07-31-2006, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

Cease to exist...exactly what you believe happens when you die. The only problem is that God's wrath is poured out on you before you die. Quite painful and agonizing. Hell is only eternal for Satan and his followers.

XOVER - Noboby ever said what Abraham did was OK or moral. Why don't you go play with your straw man some where else...it gets rather boring watching you build him up and tear him down again. Despite what you may think, Christians are not perfect. Things like the Spanish Inquisition just go to show you have evil "christians" can be at times. The only perfect Christian you should be criticizing is Jesus. Until you are able to create an argument against his morals, I suggest you stay quite.

jesus was a liar too. He told the disciples that he would come again during their lifetimes.

-Ubercat

Ubercat · 07-31-2006, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

Sheep sacrifices didn't free anyone from spiritual death. Only through the blood of Jesus are we saved.

If sheep sacrifices were worthless, then why did biblegod command them? Was he too stupid to know they were pointless?

-Ubercat

Ubercat · 07-31-2006, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

Nobody has claimed observing this, so it is illogical to try and disprove something that has not yet been observed.

But many people claim to be possessed. What explanation do you have to show they are lieing?

Ummm..... mental illness? schizophrenia to be exact.

-Ubercat

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07-29-2006, 11:22 PM	#64
Jayrok Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 471	To me demonic or Satanic possession on a human is rediculously stupid on Satan's part. According to the bible, people are destined for hell simply for being born (because of Adam's sin, everyone else is tainted and in need of a saviour). Satan doesn't have to possess anyone to harvest souls for Hell. All possession does is expose himself as real to those involved. In other words, if Satan is real, then God is real. If people witness satanic possession, that might cause them to believe and seek God.. would it not? Those people might otherwise be skeptical and as such, burn in hell anyway (if christianity is real/true). If Satan remained hidden, he'd get plenty of mankind to fall with him. By exposing himself, he's taking a chance on proving God exists in a society that is otherwise skeptical. So if this is true, Satan is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

07-31-2006, 10:14 AM	#67
philbar Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Visalia, California Posts: 263	Jack the Bodiless - <edit> How can you throw away the majority of the passages quoted with the excuse "it's not in the Book of Genesis". I guess we can't look to physics and chemistry to explain biology because in biology, biology is the only thing that matters. I can't help but laugh at you. Sorry, I really don't mean to offend you.

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