Freethought & Rationalism Archive

southbound69us · 02-23-2004, 05:49 PM

Hi

I was just wondering if anyone has heard of Rick Warren's "The Purpose Driven Life"-- my Xian freind has me going to this '40 days of purpose' Bible study with her and she keeps sprouting how good it would do for me (and everyone else, for that matter).

I would like to hear some comments on it from from the II, as I have come to respect the opinions of the people who regularly post (something I mean to do more, but haven't found the time).

If anyone could me a synopsis or critique, I would appreciate it.

~~Derek~~

"What do you despise most? By this, you are truly known"
-Muad'Dib

Kosh · 02-23-2004, 05:59 PM

Derek, remember this: no matter how nice her legs are, it ain't worth drinkin' the Christian kool-aid! Take it from one with experience...

All the "purpose" stuff and other similar faith motivational courses remind me of just that, a motivational program. Not much different from the Amway meetings (which some have compared to a church service). Seems like they're just getting people pumped up on the usual motivational stuff, and slipping the religion.

In todays hard driven American society, it seems to be what works best to win converts, since the original "reaching out to the poor" isn't gonna get the masses of the US!

Toto · 02-23-2004, 08:07 PM

Purpose Driven Life on Amazon - check out the 349 customer reviews.

There is a lot of criticism of this book as "unbiblical".

This Christian site has a number of criticisms of this book, which were not supplied by Landover Baptist Church however they read.

Quote:

I. "The Purpose Driven Life" maintains and promotes a poor theology stemming from an inadequate bibliology. . . .

Seeing God's truth in new, fresh ways is reminiscent of the author's misuse of Prov. 18:15 in his book "The Purpose Driven Church" (Page 68.) He quotes Proverbs 18:15 from the Living Bible, "The intelligent man is always open to new ideas. In fact, he looks for them." He uses this to justify a pragmatic approach of learning.

We are not to look for new ideas. We are to look for the objective truth of Scripture and to apply that to the situation we are placed in.

Proverbs 18:15 "The mind of the prudent acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge."

The Bible contains objective truth which is inspired by God, sufficient, and authoritative. While the application varies, the meaning remains the same.

. . .

II. This book misrepresents and distorts the gospel. It overlooks the fact that an unbeliever does have an identity, as well as a purpose in his life outside of a relationship with Christ. That in fact man's purpose, nature, and identity is hostile to God, fallen, and totally depraved apart from salvation. The book glosses over, minimizes, or ignores realities such as: the seriousness of sin before a holy God, the need for salvation, that God is righteous, just, holy, etc.

The heading of Chapter 7 has the following verse:

Proverbs 16:4 (NLT)
"The Lord has made everything for his own purposes."

However, this is not the complete verse! Here is the complete verse in the (NLT) and then the (NASB).

Proverbs 16:4 (NLT)
"The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for punishment."

. . .

And this review

Quote:

more fluff than feast.

. . .

. . . Key doctrines are sometimes altogether ignored, explained incompletely, or discussed without adequate scriptural support. The gospel, for example, is presented without mention of repentance, the reason Jesus died on the cross, or the eternal consequences of sin.

. . . God�s love is emphasized, while God�s wrath is conspicuously absent . . .

In light of Warren�s theological shortcomings, one is surprised to find that his book uses �over 1,200 scriptural quotes and references� (inside jacket cover). How can this be�that a book with seemingly shallow doctrine could have such extensive biblical support?

The answer to this question, in large part, is due to Warren�s flippant approach to the Scriptures. . . .

I believe that this is the church that was in a dispute with the IRS over how much of Rick Warren's generous salary could be excluded from income taxes as a "housing allowance."

focused48 · 02-23-2004, 08:49 PM

I'm not familiar with this program, but I have a general comment on faith based self help groups. If you really pay attention to what they're saying you should realize that it has little to do with Christianity. They rarely get into the nuts and bolts of the bible and sledom mention faith-specific doctrines. The leader (I prefer the term huckster) typically speaks in generalities and otherwise soft tones; in fact, most of their ideas are prepackaged platitudes adapted for biblical reference. I think they wrap their theories in religion because it gives them a ready made audience.

This reminds me of a scene in a very good movie called Melvin Goes to Dinner, where a guy is invited to a self help seminar by an attractive co-worker. He shows up and finds out that she's invited about four other guys and he's forced to sit through the program with no prospect of further relations.

Postcard73 · 02-23-2004, 11:07 PM

Moving to GRD.

Scott (Postcard73)
BC&H Moderator

sarahem · 02-26-2004, 01:34 PM

Hello,
My husband is a Christian who did a review of the Purpose Driven Life. He didn't like it very much. Here's the link:

http://www.worldmissions.com/russman...life.html#more

Sarah M

southbound69us · 02-26-2004, 03:37 PM

Thanks for the input--thats about where I thought it would be.... I've been reading it and I must agree w/those who criticized the lack of context when quoting from the Bible. It uses a lot of OT material that sometimes doesn't even include the entire sentence to prove a point thats rather shallow to begin with.

Any other comments are welcome

Kosh · 02-26-2004, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by southbound69us
It uses a lot of OT material that sometimes doesn't even include the entire sentence to prove a point

What's wrong with that? The NT does it all over the place!

southbound69us · 02-26-2004, 09:50 PM

Thats my point exactly---
I've done a little journalism in my day, and I know that anyone worth their weight in salt can hack up a quote to make it say anything at all.
But doing that to a story to cover a slant is completely different than actually influencing people's behavior--when one is undergoing a seminar regarding self-help or motivation, the person leading this group needs to keep in mind that what he is saying is influencing the way people think about the world, and its irresponsible of that person to hack up a quote in order to prove a point.
I have seen this several times in my life--when someone is in the position where they are directing people's thoughts, he needs to use quotes completely. And his quote selection needs to convey the same point he/she is trying to illustrate--because when people realize he/she is feeding them a load of complete garbage, things tend to get hairy.
Regarding the NT doing the same thing, I completely agree with you, and it illustrates my point exactly. I assume you are referring to various prophetic discussions regarding Christ and whether he was the foretold Messiah of the Hebrews, and the same effect can be seen- the quotes were taken from out of context, hacked to pieces to illustrate a point completely different from the actual intent of the quote in the first place. Its a farce, really, and a disappointment that people have to resort to doing this sort of thing, b/c a point worthy of being backed up by a quote should need to be perverted in order to do it.

rickP · 11-29-2004, 01:12 PM

While home for thanksgiving I had a good conversation with my father. My folks have always been a bit ambivalent about religion. They attend sunday school pretty regularly, but mostly for the social aspect. They stopped going to the service a few years ago. Now they just go to ss and then lunch with their friends and host a bunko game sometimes.

Their church was really pushing this book, the accompanying study guide and video series. They read a few chapters and both my folks were disgusted by the simplistic 5th grade writing style and shallow biblical interpretation. They just couldn't understand why everyone was so excited about it. Rehashed platitudes. What my father said was that it's ironic that the book that was designed to deepen his faith actually pushed him in the opposite direction. That, along with other discussions I've had with him since my deconversion regarding biblical criticism, history, archaeology, etc... have led him and my mom to be more open about their disbelief. I would say they are now fairly confirmed agnostics if not atheists at this point. They've always had their doubts, but never had access to the information to justify them. Knowledge is setting them free.

Thanksgiving this year did not include the perfunctory pre dinner grace. He sat down and said "And the Poppa said...Dig In!" No more uncomfortable rote grace recitations. Just family.

02-23-2004, 05:49 PM	#1
southbound69us Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: University of Washington Posts: 12	Any1 familiar w/Warren's "Purpose Driven Life"? Hi I was just wondering if anyone has heard of Rick Warren's "The Purpose Driven Life"-- my Xian freind has me going to this '40 days of purpose' Bible study with her and she keeps sprouting how good it would do for me (and everyone else, for that matter). I would like to hear some comments on it from from the II, as I have come to respect the opinions of the people who regularly post (something I mean to do more, but haven't found the time). If anyone could me a synopsis or critique, I would appreciate it. ~~Derek~~ "What do you despise most? By this, you are truly known" -Muad'Dib

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02-23-2004, 05:59 PM	#2
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	Derek, remember this: no matter how nice her legs are, it ain't worth drinkin' the Christian kool-aid! Take it from one with experience... All the "purpose" stuff and other similar faith motivational courses remind me of just that, a motivational program. Not much different from the Amway meetings (which some have compared to a church service). Seems like they're just getting people pumped up on the usual motivational stuff, and slipping the religion. In todays hard driven American society, it seems to be what works best to win converts, since the original "reaching out to the poor" isn't gonna get the masses of the US!

02-23-2004, 08:49 PM	#4
focused48 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Texas, USA Posts: 13	I'm not familiar with this program, but I have a general comment on faith based self help groups. If you really pay attention to what they're saying you should realize that it has little to do with Christianity. They rarely get into the nuts and bolts of the bible and sledom mention faith-specific doctrines. The leader (I prefer the term huckster) typically speaks in generalities and otherwise soft tones; in fact, most of their ideas are prepackaged platitudes adapted for biblical reference. I think they wrap their theories in religion because it gives them a ready made audience. This reminds me of a scene in a very good movie called Melvin Goes to Dinner, where a guy is invited to a self help seminar by an attractive co-worker. He shows up and finds out that she's invited about four other guys and he's forced to sit through the program with no prospect of further relations.

02-23-2004, 11:07 PM	#5
Postcard73 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Roanoke, VA. Posts: 2,198	Moving to GRD. Scott (Postcard73) BC&H Moderator

02-26-2004, 01:34 PM	#6
sarahem New Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Post Falls, ID Posts: 1	Hello, My husband is a Christian who did a review of the Purpose Driven Life. He didn't like it very much. Here's the link: http://www.worldmissions.com/russman...life.html#more Sarah M

02-26-2004, 03:37 PM	#7
southbound69us Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: University of Washington Posts: 12	Thanks for the input--thats about where I thought it would be.... I've been reading it and I must agree w/those who criticized the lack of context when quoting from the Bible. It uses a lot of OT material that sometimes doesn't even include the entire sentence to prove a point thats rather shallow to begin with. Any other comments are welcome

02-26-2004, 09:50 PM	#9
southbound69us Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: University of Washington Posts: 12	Thats my point exactly--- I've done a little journalism in my day, and I know that anyone worth their weight in salt can hack up a quote to make it say anything at all. But doing that to a story to cover a slant is completely different than actually influencing people's behavior--when one is undergoing a seminar regarding self-help or motivation, the person leading this group needs to keep in mind that what he is saying is influencing the way people think about the world, and its irresponsible of that person to hack up a quote in order to prove a point. I have seen this several times in my life--when someone is in the position where they are directing people's thoughts, he needs to use quotes completely. And his quote selection needs to convey the same point he/she is trying to illustrate--because when people realize he/she is feeding them a load of complete garbage, things tend to get hairy. Regarding the NT doing the same thing, I completely agree with you, and it illustrates my point exactly. I assume you are referring to various prophetic discussions regarding Christ and whether he was the foretold Messiah of the Hebrews, and the same effect can be seen- the quotes were taken from out of context, hacked to pieces to illustrate a point completely different from the actual intent of the quote in the first place. Its a farce, really, and a disappointment that people have to resort to doing this sort of thing, b/c a point worthy of being backed up by a quote should need to be perverted in order to do it.

11-29-2004, 01:12 PM	#10
rickP Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bloomington, IL Posts: 1,079	While home for thanksgiving I had a good conversation with my father. My folks have always been a bit ambivalent about religion. They attend sunday school pretty regularly, but mostly for the social aspect. They stopped going to the service a few years ago. Now they just go to ss and then lunch with their friends and host a bunko game sometimes. Their church was really pushing this book, the accompanying study guide and video series. They read a few chapters and both my folks were disgusted by the simplistic 5th grade writing style and shallow biblical interpretation. They just couldn't understand why everyone was so excited about it. Rehashed platitudes. What my father said was that it's ironic that the book that was designed to deepen his faith actually pushed him in the opposite direction. That, along with other discussions I've had with him since my deconversion regarding biblical criticism, history, archaeology, etc... have led him and my mom to be more open about their disbelief. I would say they are now fairly confirmed agnostics if not atheists at this point. They've always had their doubts, but never had access to the information to justify them. Knowledge is setting them free. Thanksgiving this year did not include the perfunctory pre dinner grace. He sat down and said "And the Poppa said...Dig In!" No more uncomfortable rote grace recitations. Just family.

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