Chili

Sorry but I could not resist. I think the differene is that according to Plato (and don't ask me to quote him) philosphy is king in that he understands the human mind and that is what anthropologists are searching for. So here anthropology is looking for evidence towards understanding while philosophy points at evidence from understanding -- and notice that I did not defend missionaries who know very little about either philosophy or anthropology.

lulay

at last. other broaching this vastly interesting subject which actually is CENTRAL to mythology and religion

two things rang out to me looking at the threads...'Hippie abuse" ie., that calling them 'entheogens is in some way superior to 'psychedelics' etc. well, considering Wasson -who coined the term, and was a big rich banker who looked down his nose at the hippies yet gave Maria Sabina's whereabouts away, i will side with the hippies--a MUCH maligned people, just like others have been--thought to be 'common' by an elite. i actually dont like the term 'entheogen' precisely because of its elitist beginnings, and its dodgy meaning of 'the divine within'. i use the term hallucinogen (see Ralph Metzner's definition of that term)

the other thing that rang out was from 'Chil;i who seemingly sarcastically said...in so many words 'so is it about being reborn again and again?' ie as in taking hallucinogens

well, yes. that is the point. this experience is commensurate with Nature. and Nature is constantly changing. something your Plato didn't like the idea of, thus wanting to get bcak to his Ideal Static-Ness
the sacred shroom WAs Nature, the ever living ever dying ever regenerating god-mad. what the Pauline-cult did was take the every dying ever regenerating bits out of the myth and just leave ever living, as in again static-ness
the whole deep meaning of sacramants--in their true sense is to DIE to ones rigid self....to the self that clings to old ideas, be;liefs, etc. that our patriarchalculture is doing all over the world...'i am a this' 'i am a that' 'so i want to blow you up' etc...or' i am superior to women. blacks, animals' Nature and so on
all these notions are rigid. are mindSETS. orgiastic ritual inspired with hallucinogenics blows all that awy, and then INTEGRATION begins. yes, even the hallucinogenic ecstasy must die. all is change.

Chili

Hi lulay, anything but that, but yes it was sarcasm.

My point was that when taking hallucinogenics we temporarily suspend our state of oblivion but that does not include our participation in divine wisdom . . . or our intimacy with nature as you would have it.

Nature is not ever dying and is never dying but ever regenerationg the God-life that is also within us but is subdued by our own worldly madness and when taking hallucinoginics we just temporarily block this madness from our consciousness.

At one time Paul was my friend but not anymore.

lulay

Chili said...."my point was that when taking halluinogenics we temporarily suspend our state of oblivion, but this does not include our participation in divine wisdom...or our intimacy with nature as you have it"

I am not clear as to what you mean here...do you mean that hallucinogenic inspiration does not give the taker deep insight and participation in Nature?

"Nature is not ev er dying and is never dying but ever regenerating the God-life that is also within us but is subdued by our own worldy madness and when taking hallucinogens we just temporariliy block this madness from our consciousness"

Ahhh, but you see, you refuse to accept death. As if by not saying it or acknowledging is reality it will not be there, or go there

what i have found through my researches, is that in patriarchal myth the very idea of death is feared and wished away. so we have the 'promise' of eternal life ala Christ....the reward of after life with Islam.....the reward of 'Nirvana' in Buddhism....etc. all trying to deny death.
but when you look closer you see that withOUT death you dont GET regeneration. the two go togther. and when you look closer still, you see that death is inherent in very life, in very movement. as i wave my arm, the trajectory is the 'death' of that movement whose motion, life is regeneration

it is the patriarchal philosophers who have abstracted a 'death' from
a 'life'

(i am going away for a week. so will regenerate this thread if its died when i get back.....)

Chili

Yes about that. It just relieves us from our pains of alienation much like a hypnotist would do. . . . and perhaps shows us that there is more to life than what we think there is. Death is the cessation of life and not a thing we do or nature does. God is the leading edge of life where changes occur and only a deep sentiment will cause us to look at death. But then, I am 'alive' and what more can I say? that I am partly 'adeath'?Have a good trip and if you get bored please ponder the thoughts that it is "in dying that we are born to eternal life." In my view, and since these two are opposite it is a one time event and not a slow 'waisting away' of life in exchange for death.

The Patriarchs were patriots and you should keep that in mind (which you do! and maybe is what you do too much for your own good). I'd rather you, as a female, 'be' somebody and show those patriarch the stuff you are made off.

Have fun.

Clivedurdle

Does the Tao fit here? The way that can be followed is not the way?

I understood there was no such thing as a straight line in the universe, until we invented them! What about the concept of the music of the spheres?