Roger Pearse

I'm having difficulty with what you write, because of the way that you're writing it, but am very interested in this.

So you don't mean Bede's *works*, as such, but rather manuscripts containing his works? (am I right?) You don't seem to be a manuscripts scholar, so I'm wondering what your source is for this

Surely there must be a fair number of insular manuscripts of that period?

What we want, tho, is images of all the pages online. Something like this:

http://www.tertullian.org/manuscript...balliol_79.htm

I know exactly what you mean. Stuff on mss studies online is very variable. If you can find any sources which you used, that would be helpful.

Thanks.

Sorry, I am a little unclear. "A fairly full set of images"... of what? "Latin vulgate texts" -- what have you in mind?

I'm rather interested myself, actually. Good to meet someone else who is.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

djrafikie

Bede gave speeches and held masses, together with self written liturgy, some of which has been transcribed by others from memory, and some he wrote himself (although the chances are that in fact he dictated them to a room containing several scribes so he could quickly produce a number of copies.
Quickly is relative here, it probably still took an awfully long time by our standards.
Jarrow monastery is quite famous for pioneering new methods of making copy like this, previously a monk would produce a scriptural work more in the style of eadfrith, where it was a work of religious devotion worked on by (mostly) only one person.

Sorry if my previous post made hard reading, I was a little under the influence!

If I tried to explain what I mean by "latin vulgate" texts I would be here all day, as it is a rather meaty subject, so I will lazily let this wikipedia article do it for me. It pretty good.
I'm sure you know more or less what the term means Roger, but for others who don't, here it is..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate

I chose Vulgate texts as an example partially because they exemplify the most cutting edge scholarly works of the time, and partly because they are very often translations, many of which aren't quite as accurate as they should have been, but many of which have passed into common use.

I really should cut my nails, they make typing on this laptop a rather dicey buisness!


RE - The lindisfarne gospels being pretty much the only surviving work "of their type", there are other manuscripts from this period, but this particular work contains many elements which were taken foward into day to day use, and some of them were pioneering.

It's quality, state of preservation, and quality of work, also make it priceless as well as of intense interest to scriptural scholars (which, as you pointed out, I am not quite, I'm more of a general english lit bod.)

aa5874

But Justin did name many of the prophets and quoted from the books of the OT with their names.

Justin mentioned the following prophets: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Elijah, Micah, Daniel, Hosea, Zephaniah, Elisha, Amos and Hezekiah.

And the word "anonymous is synonymous with the word "un-named" with respect to authorship.

Justin did NOT say that apostles named Matthew, Mark, Luke or John wrote any Gospels, all he noted was that he was aware of or had in his possession memoirs of the apostles called Gospels and quoted many passages from the memoirs.

By the way, you can read Justin Martyr's writings at www.earlychristianwritings.com

andrewcriddle

It's pretty obvious IMO

Section 1 goes on about something written by the apostles collectively to defend the Gospel against Simon and Cerinthus .
Section 7 onwards denounces Cerinthus and Simon and continues with what the authors have written to concerning the truth about Jesus Christ.
Section 1, and immediately following, is clearly providing an introduction to what comes later in the letter.
The OT books are ancient sacred texts, the NT books are (at this stage) witnesses to sacred words and deeds more than sacred texts as such. As they cease to be witnesses to recent events and become ancient sacred texts like the OT their authorship will become more important.

Andrew Criddle

sschlichter

well, I have to admit I am a little suspicious that the most significant issue is that they answer your question.

aa5874

Again, you have provided another weak, dubious and highly speculative explanation for the authorship of the Gospel.

The NT books were witnesses to the sacred words of Mary and the angel Gabriel about the conception of Jesus?

The NT books were witnesses to the resurrection and ascension of Jesus?

The NT books were witnesses to the conversion of Saul, when he was blinded by a bright light?

I am pretty sure the NT books were NOT witnesses to those deeds, since those deeds are pretty near impossible.

sschlichter

well, anonymous is the same as un-named. However, you are the one using the word, not Justin Martyr. he does not say anonymous or un-named.

he says...

For the Apostles, in the memoirs composed by them which are called Gospels, have delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them.

It does not surprise me at all that he treats references to the Old Testament differently. His audience would have understood that Judaism had a book and the references make perfect sense. Wouldn't you treat a reference to a textbook differently than you would a letter from a guy you used to work for. It still seems clear that he is claiming that the Apostles wrote the memoirs in question and when he quotes them, we recognize them as the gospel of Matthew.

~Steve

aa5874

Why would Irenaeus and Tertullian who wrote in the 2nd century, also, mention all the names of the Gospel writers, the Acts of Apostles, the name of the author of the letters to the seven churches and mention the names of the prophets of the OT, weren't these writers writing to the same audience?

Why did Justin mention an apostle called John who wrote a "revelation" and never mentioned that the apostle John also wrote one of the Gospels.

Dialogue with Trypho by Justin Martyr: So, it appears that it was likely Justin would have mentioned that Matthew, Mark, Luke or John wrote the memoirs of the apostles if they were already named as authors.

And further, the memoirs of the apostles, as stated by Justin also contain passages that are found only in gMark and gLuke.

sschlichter

Justin Martyrs audience was Emporer Titus. He was an apologist petitioning for legal protection for Christians being persecuted. It certainly would have been convenient if he would have named them by name, but he named them by group and quoting them so it is clear to me that he was was referring to them. I suspected other than Matt was quoted but was not certain. thanks for letting me know.

~Steve

andrewcriddle

I thought my OP was clear but I will spell it out .

The OT books are regarded as ancient sacred texts, the NT books are (at this stage) regarded as witnesses to sacred words and deeds more than sacred texts as such. As they cease to be regarded as witnesses to recent events and become regarded as ancient sacred texts like the OT their authorship will become more important.

Andrew Criddle