FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-19-2006, 06:35 PM   #1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Saint Petersburg, Fl
Posts: 51
Default Jesus vs. Archelaus

It has been suggested that I begin posting to this site and I shall.

I am asserting that the Jesus stories - the original stories - were written around 8 - 12 CE and that they reference the Assault on the Temple leading up to Passover of 4 BCE. These stories were written by survivors of this Slaughter shortly after the end of Judas of Galilee as a Last Call to Honor for Judah and a Greater Israel. This second call failed as did the first. This material consists of internal markers that appear to reference known historical events. The events of the Passover Slaughter are described in Josephus, Antiquities, Book 17, Ch. 9, 3 quoted below. In the interest of space, I have quoted only a section. It is suggested that the entirety of the descriptors be read to get the view of this event.

This section, and all sections concerning Archelaus written by Josephus, were taken from the writings of Nicholas of Damascus, if Buchler, quoted in the online Jewish Encyclopedia, is to be believed. Nicholas of Damascus appears as a somewhat shadowy figure in the Herodian court. He has the ability to see the Roman emperor to argue in favor of Herod, Archelaus and other matters concerning the Herodian state. He is, in short, the Roman Political Control Officer. His version of the Passover story is a bit elliptical, but usable.

Antiquities, Book 17, Ch. 9, 3:

"3. Now, upon the approach of that feast of unleavened bread, which the law of their fathers had appointed for the Jews at this time, which feast is called the Passover (13) and is a memorial of their deliverance out of Egypt, when they offer sacrifices with great alacrity; and when they are required to slay more sacrifices in number than at any other festival; and when an innumerable multitude came thither out of the country, nay, from beyond its limits also, in order to worship God, the seditious lamented Judas and Matthias, those teachers of the laws, and kept together in the temple, and had plenty of food, because these seditious persons were not ashamed to beg it. And as Archelaus was afraid lest some terrible thing should spring up by means of these men's madness, he sent a regiment of armed men, and with them a captain of a thousand, to suppress the violent efforts of the seditious before the whole multitude should be infected with the like madness; and gave them this charge, that if they found any much more openly seditious than others, and more busy in tumultuous practices, they should bring them to him. But those that were seditious on account of those teachers of the law, irritated the people by the noise and clamors they used to encourage the people in their designs; so they made an assault upon the soldiers, and came up to them, and stoned the greatest part of them, although some of them ran away wounded, and their captain among them; and when they had thus done, they returned to the sacrifices which were already in their hands. Now Archelaus thought there was no way to preserve the entire government but by cutting off those who made this attempt upon it; so he sent out the whole army upon them, and sent the horsemen to prevent those that had their tents without the temple from assisting those that were within the temple, and to kill such as ran away from the footmen when they thought themselves out of danger; which horsemen slew three thousand men, while the rest went to the neighboring mountains. Then did Archelaus order proclamation to be made to them all, that they should retire to their own homes; so they went away, and left the festival, out of fear of somewhat worse which would follow, although they had been so bold by reason of their want of instruction."

It will be shown that this is the founding event of the Jesus stories. The extant descriptions found in the Jesus stories all parallel this event. They offer evidence beyond Josephus/Nicholas' accounts, showing that they were not just rewrites of these accounts. They give valid historical references. It will be shown that Jesus was a construction, representing the Priesthood.

More later,

Charles
Charles Wilson is offline  
Old 03-19-2006, 07:02 PM   #2
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Saint Petersburg, Fl
Posts: 51
Default _Wars of the Jews_ Book 2, Ch. 1. 2 - 3

"2. Upon this the multitude were pleased, and presently made a trial of what he intended, by asking great things of him; for some made a clamor that he would ease them in their taxes; others, that he would take off the duties upon commodities; and some, that he would loose those that were in prison; in all which cases he answered readily to their satisfaction, in order to get the good-will of the multitude; after which he offered [the proper] sacrifices, and feasted with his friends. And here it was that a great many of those that desired innovations came in crowds towards the evening, and began then to mourn on their own account, when the public mourning for the king was over. These lamented those that were put to death by Herod, because they had cut down the golden eagle that had been over the gate of the temple. Nor was this mourning of a private nature, but the lamentations were very great, the mourning solemn, and the weeping such as was loudly heard all over the city, as being for those men who had perished for the laws of their country, and for the temple. They cried out that a punishment ought to be inflicted for these men upon those that were honored by Herod; and that, in the first place, the man whom he had made high priest should be deprived; and that it was fit to choose a person of greater piety and purity than he was.

3. At these clamors Archelaus was provoked, but restrained himself from taking vengeance on the authors, on account of the haste he was in of going to Rome, as fearing lest, upon his making war on the multitude, such an action might detain him at home. Accordingly, he made trial to quiet the innovators by persuasion, rather than by force, and sent his general in a private way to them, and by him exhorted them to be quiet. But the seditious threw stones at him, and drove him away, as he came into the temple, and before he could say any thing to them. The like treatment they showed to others, who came to them after him, many of which were sent by Archelaus, in order to reduce them to sobriety, and these answered still on all occasions after a passionate manner; and it openly appeared that they would not be quiet, if their numbers were but considerable. And indeed, at the feast of unleavened bread, which was now at hand, and is by the Jews called the Passover, and used to he celebrated with a great number of sacrifices, an innumerable multitude of the people came out of the country to worship; some of these stood in the temple bewailing the Rabbins [that had been put to death], and procured their sustenance by begging, in order to support their sedition. At this Archclaus was aftrighted, and privately sent a tribune, with his cohort of soldiers, upon them, before the disease should spread over the whole multitude, and gave orders that they should constrain those that began the tumult, by force, to be quiet. At these the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them; but the tribune fled away wounded, and had much ado to escape so. After which they betook themselves to their sacrifices, as if they had done no mischief; nor did it appear to Archelaus that the multitude could be restrained without bloodshed; so he sent his whole army upon them, the footmen in great multitudes, by the way of the city, and the horsemen by the way of the plain, who, falling upon them on the sudden, as they were offering their sacrifices, destroyed about three thousand of them; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed upon the adjoining mountains: these were followed by Archelaus's heralds, who commanded every one to retire to their own homes, whither they all went, and left the festival. "

Another view of the event. I cannot resist asking you to note the request at the end of Section 2,

"They cried out that a punishment ought to be inflicted for these men upon those that were honored by Herod; and that, in the first place, the man whom he had made high priest should be deprived; and that it was fit to choose a person of greater piety and purity than he was. "

Ask yourself, "What did Herod do to the High Priest position, and who might fit the description of "Greater piety and PURITY"? When this is explored we shall see how this was a political movement to eliminate the Herodians and the Romans and return Israel to the path of God.

Much more later,

CW
Charles Wilson is offline  
Old 03-20-2006, 11:12 AM   #3
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Saint Petersburg, Fl
Posts: 51
Default "The Squall"

Let's get started.
First, if you are a Mythicist, Marcionite or someone who believes that there is nothing that could have survived from an original story written around 8 - 12 CE, do not proceed.
I certainly need to know that particular sections have evidence supporting later construction or fabrication. If, however, you believe that ALL of the material is late 2nd century, for example, then please move on.

Second, let us begin by stating a question concerning the "Jesus stories": "If the metaphysics and trappings of a later religion are removed, is anything left?" That is, if a "human sacrifice" motif is presented, this becomes a measure of later additions, since the concept of human sacrifice would be completely alien to a member of the Priesthood. Remove it from considertion. In a sense, this is a "blunt instrument" method of criticism. After you have "clear cut" the surrounding forest of material, will you find anything? Let's see.

Mark 5: 35 - 40:

That same day, when evening came, he said to them, "Let us cross to the other side"; so, leaving the crowd, they took him (just as he was) in the boat, accompanied by some other boats. But a heavy squall of wind came on, and the waves splashed into the boat, so that the boat filled. He was sleeping on a cushion in the stern; so they woke him, saying, "Teacher, are we to drown, for all you care?" And he woke up, checked the wind, and told the sea, "Peace, be quiet." The wind fell and there was great calm. Then he said to them, "Why are you afraid like this? Have you no faith yet?"

This passage is a good place to start. I consider this the most important section in the NT. In Matthew and Luke, this is presented as a "mere miracle" story. In these two, the statement is simply, "Master, we are drowning!"
Mark's version is different. Jesus is "sleeping on a cushion in the stern." Is this just "mere addition," something added to make the story more "realistic"? Further, the people in the boat are very rude. Don't they understand that this is the "Son of God" they're talking to? "Are we to drown, FOR ALL YOU CARE?"

Allow me to stack the deck just a bit.
Let us apply our rule - This is not a description of a real event, as stated. People do not control the weather by saying "Peace, be quiet." The metaphysics should be eliminated. This is not a "Miracle." What, then, is left?

We are looking for a key that will allow us to unlock the meaning of the symbolic story - the story is not "real" but the event it describes must be. In Dr. Zhivago, if "Lara" represents "Russia", then when we find a passage where she goes to sleep and has a pain on her side, we find that this "Pain" is aligned with the Kronstadt Rebellion. We have an idea of what has happened and what may be coming.

Here, Jesus is "sleeping on a cushion in the stern." Is there any other place in the gospels where there are "cushions, spread all around?" Is there another event that has "Jesus" in a position of safety while his followers are in fear of death? Yes, of course.

Mark 14: 10 - 20:

"Then Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went to the high priest to betray him to them. They were delighted to hear it, and promised to pay him for it. Meantime, he sought a good opportunity for betraying him. On the first day of unleavened bread (the day when the paschal lamb was sacrificed), his disciples said to him, "Where do you want us to go and prepare for you to eat the passover?" So he dispatched two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city and you will meet a man carrying a water jar; follow him, and whatever house he goes into, tell the owner that the teacher says, 'Where is my room, that I may eat the passover there with my disciples?' He will show you a large room upstairs , with couches spread, all ready; prepare the passover for us there." The disciples went away into the city and found it was as he had told them. So they prepared the passover, and when evening fell he arrived along with the twelve."

(It should be noted that there is sharp disagreement over the addition of "Judas Iscariot" into the mix here.) Nonetheless, there is a bare match here,with "cushions" => "couches spread, all ready." Certainly, someone would object, "This seems real weak. What leads you to believe that this is what is intended? After all, the "Squall" story is about a boat and the Passover story is about the arrest and crucifixion of Jesus. What gives?"

Let us look at the "Squall" story as a written history of something that happened. The 'boat' must symbolize something in this piece. The meaning will be given later - Hint: It has a physical meaning. Jesus is "in the stern of the boat" and others are "outside", presumably "on deck". A storm comes up and threatens to "fill the boat". The boat would sink and presumably most everyone would drown. Jesus wakes and calms the storm and questions the faith of the travelers. The question: Does this match up with an historical event? Answer: No!
Something has been changed in the conclusion of this story. If the story matches to some catastrophe in the historical record, then there is no match - Unless this is a story written after the event, a story of the nature of , "This event I am describing resulted in death and destruction the first time around. It will not happen again."

Certainly, the Passover story tells of a catastrophe to Jesus and the Disciples, a catastrophe that resulted in death. If the story is descriptive of something that happened, however, than some real meaning of a Passover tragedy should be left in history There should be a story of a Passover that ended in death for some and a scattering of the survivors. To really stack the deck, there should be some statement on the order of, "Unless those days should be cut short, there should no flesh be saved alive."
Now, go and read the histories given above by Josephus/Nicholas. Pay particular attention to the "Leaders of the Sedition." Where were they recruiting? Match the given time line with (at least) one of the gospels (Try GJohn).

Much, much more,

CW
Charles Wilson is offline  
Old 03-20-2006, 10:46 PM   #4
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Mornington Peninsula
Posts: 1,306
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wilson
Mark 5: 35 - 40:
That same day, when evening came, he said to them, "Let us cross to the other side"; so, leaving the crowd, they took him (just as he was) in the boat, accompanied by some other boats. But a heavy squall of wind came on, and the waves splashed into the boat, so that the boat filled. He was sleeping on a cushion in the stern; so they woke him, saying, "Teacher, are we to drown, for all you care?" And he woke up, checked the wind, and told the sea, "Peace, be quiet." The wind fell and there was great calm. Then he said to them, "Why are you afraid like this? Have you no faith yet?"
CW
Frankly I find MacDonald and The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark (or via: amazon.co.uk) somewhat more convincing upon this passage.

Cushion/couches...
youngalexander is offline  
Old 03-21-2006, 05:01 AM   #5
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Saint Petersburg, Fl
Posts: 51
Default I understand

This is a bit difficult to follow at first. To help: The "boat" is the Temple and immediate surroundings. "The sea" will be seen as the people who have come to Jerusalem at Passover.
When Jesus is "asleep on a cushion in the stern", he is at the "place of safety" just west of the Temple. In recent days, I have discovered a likely candidate for this lodging site, the "Hasmonaean Palace" which literally overlooked the Temple. We shall see that on the night of the Slaughter, the Jesus group was obtaining young Priestly recruits for what will be known as "The Plan" (This is the "young man wearing a linen robe" who was stripped naked and ran away after Jesus was "arrested".) There was supposed to be a watch over the Temple by friendlies to warn the Priests of any police actions. They were not up to the job ("...Could you not stay awake for one hour?...") and the Priests were soon in the middle of the Slaughter.

I truly understand if you do not want to go down this path. I can only state that there is a consistency in this interpretation and that it fits with the one known historical source, Josephus/Nicholas.

Thank you,

Charles
Charles Wilson is offline  
Old 03-21-2006, 06:51 AM   #6
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Saint Petersburg, Fl
Posts: 51
Default The Lunatic, the Plan and Greater Israel

Mark 5: 1 - 20:

Then they reached the opposite side of the sea, the country of the Gerasenes. And as soon as he stepped out of the boat, a man from the tombs came to meet him, a man with an unclean spirit who dwelt among the tombs; by this time, no one could bind him, not even with a chain, for he had often been bound with fetters and chains and had snapped the chains and broken the fetters - nobody could tame him. All night and day among the tombs and the hills he shrieked and gashed himself with stones. On catching sight of Jesus from afar, he ran and knelt before him, shrieking aloud, "Jesus, Son of God most High, what business have you with me? By God, I abjure you, do not torture me." (For he had said," Come out of the man, you unclean spirit.") Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "Legion," he said, "there is a host of us." And they begged him earnestly not to send them out of the country.
Now a large drove of swine was grazing there on the hillside; so the spirits begged him, "Send us into the swine, that we may enter them." And Jesus gave them leave. Then out came the unclean spirits and entered the swine, and the drove rushed down the steep slope into the sea (there were about two thousand of them), and in the sea they were drowned. The herdsmen fled and reported it to the towns and hamlets. So the people came to see what had happened, and when they reached Jesus they saw the lunatic sitting down, clothed and in his sober senses - the man possessed by 'Legion.' That frightened them. And those who had seen it, related to them what had happened to the lunatic and the swine. Then they began begging Jesus to leave their district. As he was stepping into the boat, the lunatic begged that he might accompany him; but he said, "Go home to your own people, and report to them all the Lord has done for you, and how he took pity on you." So he went off and began to proclaim throughout Decapolis all that Jesus had done for him; it made everyone astonished."

Greater Israel, even beyond Judah, lives in the tombs. The old countries, covered in the chronicles of the very literature of the nation, are there no more. This nation, bound by these once great empires, has survived. Like the ancient title "King of Kish", which carried great honor in Sumer long after its final collapse, these nations are remembered but even they could not contain the lunatic - this surviving country. He breaks the chains and fetters. Nobody could tame him - until now. Now he continually shrieks and "gashes himself with stones". He is occupied - possessed! - and every time he attempts to strike back at those who possess him, he only injures himself.
This brings us to a very key word, for it determines the depth of the history as these stories were conceived. Simply stated, were these stories told using the Greek/Roman word "Legion" or were they told using a directly translatable word that means exactly the same thing? Or was the word in the original something else? The sense is obvious. Israel is possessed by Legion. So: Part of the purpose of "Jesus" is a political one. There is a Plan to eliminate the Romans.
After the Lunatic is cured, he is found - what else? - clothed and in his sober senses. Over and over, clothes mark a reference to the Priesthood. The salvation of the nation is to be found in the re-establishment of the Priests. So the Plan has many more possibilities - It is a Plan to eliminate the Romans and restore the Priesthood to Judah AND Greater Israel.

Finally, note where this man now goes - to The Decapolis! A ten city league in which a full scale culture war is going on. The Greeks view the Jews as obscene - they practice circumcision, defiling the temple of the body. The Jews believe the Greeks are obscene - they are totally unclean, practice homosexuality, sacrifice to foreign gods, compete for idols in the gymnasium. "...Report to them all that the Lord has done for you..." This is a challenge to Israel.

CW
Charles Wilson is offline  
Old 03-21-2006, 09:05 AM   #7
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 2,060
Default

The woman with the twelve year issue of blood seems to have a symbolic meaning in the gospels. This would make her ritually unclean wouldn' it? Is there a larger case when she allegedly touches Jesus clothes? What is the meaning of this?

Jake Jones IV
jakejonesiv is offline  
Old 03-21-2006, 09:59 AM   #8
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Saint Petersburg, Fl
Posts: 51
Default Woman with the 12 Year Issue of Blood

The following stories tell the "origin" and meaning of what I call "The Plan." The stories appear to be aligned. Let us assume that they are "close enough". These stories are "when" stories but also "why" stories - "why" it is important that this task be undertaken. It matters little if these stories were "combined" for a "smoother" telling or "actually" represent different time periods. (Note: I am looking for evidence that the "Woman.." story was a known 4th century creation. If it is disqualified because of its year of origin, well, then we'll just have to do without it. Otherwise, Let's assume that it is OK.)

Mark 5: 21 - 43

Now when Jesus had crossed back in the boat to the other side, a large crowd gathered round him; so he remained beside the sea. A president of the synagogue, called Jairus, came up, and on catching sight of him fell at his feet with earnest entreaties. "My little girl is dying," he said, "do come and lay your hands on her, that she may recover and live." So Jesus went away with him. Now a large crowd followed him; they pressed round him. And there was a woman who had a hemorrhage for twelve years - she had suffered much under a number of doctors, and had spent all her means, but she was none the better; in fact she was rather worse. Hearing about Jesus, she got behind him in the crowd, and touched his robe; "If I can even touch his clothes", she said to herself, "I will recover." And at once the hemorrhage stopped; she felt in her body that she was cured of her complaint. Jesus was at once conscious that some healing virtue had passed from him, so he turned round in the crowd and asked, "Who touched my clothes?" His disciples said to him, "You see the crowd are pressing all round you, and yet you ask, "Who touched me?" But he kept looking round to see who had done it , and the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came forward in fear and trembling and fell down before him, telling him all the truth. "Daughter", he said to her, "your faith has made you well; go in peace and be free from your complaint." He was still speaking when a message came from the house of the synagogue-president, "Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the teacher to come any further?" Instantly Jesus ignored the remark and told the president, "Have no fear, only believe." He would not allow any to accompany him, except Peter and James and John the brother of James. So they reached the president's house, where he saw a tumult of people wailing and making shrill lament; and on entering he asked them, "Why make a noise and wail? The child is not dead but asleep." They laughed at him. However, he put them all outside and taking the father and the mother of the child as well as his companions he went in where the child was lying; then he took the child's hand and said to her, "Talitha koum" - which may be translated, "Little girl rise, I tell you." The girl got up and began to walk (she was twelve years old); and at once they were lost in utter amazement. But he strictly forbade them to let anyone know about it, and told them to give her something to eat."


It is hard to imagine more historical information being passed in these few sentences. Jairus, president of the synagogue, tells Jesus that his offspring is dying. The Plan for rededication of the nation comes from Jairus, also equvalent to "Lazarus". The Plan is dying or dead and only Jesus - or what Jesus represents in these stories - can help her recover. "My little girl is dying", he said, "come and lay your hands on her that she may live." The daughter is twelve years old! On the verge of womanhood! Whatever has happened, there are Priests who still conceive of the Plan's Worth.
The story of "Jairus and his daughter" is interrupted quite suddenly by the woman who has had the issue of blood for twelve years. This is completely identified as history since it refers to internal states of the woman.

"...if I can touch even his clothes," she said to herself, "I will recover."

No amount of "miracle talk" can cover this. There is a history to tell here, if only someone will look. This woman has suffered, "under a number of doctors, and had spent all her means, but she was none the better; in fact she was rather worse." The history of the Zealots et. al. found many a hero who would lead the people in a bloody war to defeat the Romans. They are all dead.
There is much more. She has had a hemorrhage for twelve years. She has been unclean for twelve years. This points to something much, much different from the fight against the Romans. It is the nation that is unclean and it is unclean for something that was done by the Priests, themselves. Judah is unclean by an act it has committed on its own people. This is an historical marker, for if such an act or acts can be found and dated, the date of the writing of this material will then be known.
The woman believes. She touches his clothes and is cleansed. Jesus is quite clear about this. "Who touched my clothes?" The disciples think she has touched him. As stated earlier, clothes cover the nakedness. What covers the nakedness of the nation is the Priesthood. Priestly clothes cover the nakedness of the Priestly Jesus. There is the always cryptic "Healing virtue" passage to deal with. The woman touches the clothes but Jesus feels the "healing virtue" leave him. "The Priestly clothes covered my uncleanliness also," we might imagine the writer saying, " for I certainly was with those who rendered you unclean." Jesus is a Priest who was present during an episode that rendered the nation as wel as the Priesthood unclean.
When we return to the story of Jairus' daughter, Jesus is "laughed at" for declaring that she is not dead but "merely sleeping." She arises and a meal is prepared for her to eat. Political dreams do not die so easily, nor are they so easily "resurrected."
The references to "12 years" is a marker for history, a real history, not a Mythic or metaphysical history. The marker is the Passover Slaughter of 4 BCE. These stories are from ~ 8 - 12 CE, after Judas of Galilee. We now have a chronology we can fit to the other stories
Charles Wilson is offline  
Old 03-22-2006, 05:23 AM   #9
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Saint Petersburg, Fl
Posts: 51
Default War of the Jews, Ch. 6, Sect. 1

There was a Plan that made it into the record. This Plan is for the return of the rule of the Priests with a "benign" aspect to it. The group of 50 Jews is arguing for an end to the Herods and the placement of Judea under a Syrian governor pleasing to Rome.
The Plan of the Jesus group appears to be a long term position.
Notice again the role of Nicholas of Damascus at the end. Was he ever on the wrong side when he argued in front of the emperor? Hmmm...

"CHAPTER 6.

THE JEWS GREATLY COMPLAIN OF ARCHELAUS AND DESIRE THAT THEY MAY BE MADE SUBJECT TO ROMAN GOVERNORS. BUT WHEN CAESAR HAD HEARD WHAT THEY HAD TO SAY, HE DISTRIBUTED HEROD'S DOMINIONS AMONG HIS SONS ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PLEASURE.

1. BUT now came another accusation from the Jews against Archelaus at Rome, which he was to answer to. It was made by those ambassadors who, before the revolt, had come, by Varus's permission, to plead for the liberty of their country; those that came were fifty in number, but there were more than eight thousand of the Jews at Rome who supported them. And when Caesar had assembled a council of the principal Romans in Apollo's (2) temple, that was in the palace, (this was what he had himself built and adorned, at a vast expense,) the multitude of the Jews stood with the ambassadors, and on the other side stood Archelaus, with his friends; but as for the kindred of Archelaus, they stood on neither side; for to stand on Archelaus's side, their hatred to him, and envy at him, would not give them leave, while yet they were afraid to be seen by Caesar with his accusers. Besides these, there were present Archelaus's brother Philip, being sent thither beforehand, out of kindness by Varus, for two reasons: the one was this, that he might be assisting to Archelaus; and the other was this, that in case Caesar should make a distribution of what Herod possessed among his posterity, he might obtain some share of it.

2. And now, upon the permission that was given the accusers to speak, they, in the first place, went over Herod's breaches of their law, and said that be was not a king, but the most barbarous of all tyrants, and that they had found him to be such by the sufferings they underwent from him; that when a very great number had been slain by him, those that were left had endured such miseries, that they called those that were dead happy men; that he had not only tortured the bodies of his subjects, but entire cities, and had done much harm to the cities of his own country, while he adorned those that belonged to foreigners; and he shed the blood of Jews, in order to do kindnesses to those people that were out of their bounds; that he had filled the nation full of poverty, and of the greatest iniquity, instead of that happiness and those laws which they had anciently enjoyed; that, in short, the Jews had borne more calamities from Herod, in a few years, than had their forefathers during all that interval of time that had passed since they had come out of Babylon, and returned home, in the reign of Xerxes (3) that, however, the nation was come to so low a condition, by being inured to hardships, that they submitted to his successor of their own accord, though he brought them into bitter slavery; that accordingly they readily called Archelaus, though he was the son of so great a tyrant, king, after the decease of his father, and joined with him in mourning for the death of Herod, and in wishing him good success in that his succession; while yet this Archelaus, lest he should be in danger of not being thought the genuine son of Herod, began his reign with the murder of three thousand citizens; as if he had a mind to offer so many bloody sacrifices to God for his government, and to fill the temple with the like number of dead bodies at that festival: that, however, those that were left after so many miseries, had just reason to consider now at last the calamities they had undergone, and to oppose themselves, like soldiers in war, to receive those stripes upon their faces [but not upon their backs, as hitherto]. Whereupon they prayed that the Romans would have compassion upon the [poor] remains of Judea, and not expose what was left of them to such as barbarously tore them to pieces, and that they would join their country to Syria, and administer the government by their own commanders, whereby it would [soon] be demonstrated that those who are now under the calumny of seditious persons, and lovers of war, know how to bear governors that are set over them, if they be but tolerable ones. So the Jews concluded their accusation with this request. Then rose up Nicolaus, and confuted the accusations which were brought against the kings, and himself accused the Jewish nation, as hard to be ruled, and as naturally disobedient to kings. He also reproached all those kinsmen of Archelaus who had left him, and were gone over to his accusers. "


CW
Charles Wilson is offline  
Old 03-22-2006, 05:37 AM   #10
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Saint Petersburg, Fl
Posts: 51
Default Luke 13: 10 - 17

Here is one historical marker.
This pericope is of the woman bent over double for 18 years. She has been ill for that long and if we simply count back the years from this 8 - 12 CE time, we get to a decree issued by Herod in 7/6 BCE that all Judeans shall bow down to the emperor and Herod.

10. As Jesus taught on the Sabbath at one of the synagogues,
11. There was a woman there, who had been ill* eighteen years and she was crippled* and was not able to attain health.
12. When Jesus saw her, he called her and said to her, "Woman, I release you from your sickness."
13. And he placed a hand over her and at once she straightened out and glorified God.
14. Then the head of the synagogue replied angrily regarding the healing Jesus did on the Sabbath, and he told the congregation, "There are six days that it is Lawful to work. In those [days] come and be healed and not on the Sabbath."
15. Jesus then replied and told him, "Hypocrite, everyone of you on the Sabbath, do you not untie your bull or your donkey from the stable and go to the stream?
16. "This then is the daughter of Abraham, and behold the devil has bound her these eighteen years, was it not Lawful that she be unbound from this bondage on the Sabbath day?"
17. And as he said these things, all those who opposed him were embarrassed and all the people were gladdened by the miracles that were performed by his hand."
Charles Wilson is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:34 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.