noah

Sorry Gawen. I meant Gamera. Spare me the high-handed admonishments by the way. It was just a mistake. That's all

noah

Truly seeking an answer? Are you? Answer truthfully.
All you do here is preach and <edit> post links to articles you say are written by skeptics who turn out to be Christians.

I read the first part of that article and got stopped dead in my tracks by the number of falsehoods in it. I see, as usual, an awful lot of Paul being cited to prove Paul and not very much Jesus and his Father Yahweh. No surprise there. Just so you know, Paul had no authority to cancel the "Old" Covenant, nor did he have authority to create a new covenant. Paul is, for your info, not a member of the Trinity.
Next point, the big point, is that there is no such thing as an "Old" Covenant. Yahweh/JC issued his New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34. That new covenant is permanent, immutable, founded on His Laws and etched in the hearts of men so they will follow God's Law instinctively and will not need to be taught His Law by anyone. No mention of Paul or letters to Corinthians or Paul's contrivance aka faith in JC as a human blood sacrifice. In the days of the new covenant, each person will die for their own sin ala Ezek 18:20-28. No longer will people need to be taught by others about God, for each person will know God personally and directly without the need for any intermediary (i.e. Paul):
Paul's New Covenant bears no resemblance to JC/Yahweh's New Covenant.
To make matters worse for Paul this New covenant hasn't even arrived yet. When it does there will be full Torah compliance. Again no mention anywhere of Paul cancelling any of this or any other covenant Yahweh/JC created with a doctrine of faith in JC as a human blood sacrifice.

2 Corinthians 3:14 is wrong
No ones minds were ever made dull by reading the so-called Old Covenant. That is pure unadulterated Paulinian fiction. Paul can't prove this assertion but he makes it anyway. Go Paul.
Still on the topic of Paulinian fiction 2 Corinthians 3:6 is incorrect. Surprised? In verse after verse JC/Yahweh make clear that their Law is life giving see Ezekiel 18 20-22 for example.
In addition other verses state plainly that God's Laws are done in a spirit of truth and righteousness Psalm 111:8 for example. Other verses impart the feeling of joy and exuberance inherent in God's commands and the protection from evil he and his Laws provide:
Psalm 5:11
Psalm 35:9God warned against people like Paul who would seek to pervert and marginalize God's eternal and perfect Laws:
Psa 50:16-17
To finish I just want to emphasize the point that Paul's doctrine of faith in JC as a human blood sacrifice violates God's commands regarding sin, salvation and atonement. Only the individual can make up for his or her transgressions. No one else can do it for them:
Psa 49:7-9

Jesse Leigh

G'morning noah...

Clearly you don't understand the difference between the Spirit of the Law and the letter of the Law.

The content of the rest of your post is cynical, inflammatory, and just plain rude, and wrong on... so many counts. I don't discuss things with people who cannot conduct themselves with a modicum of diplomacy and respect. Sorry. - Jesse.

Gawen

Good grief Jesse...that web page sited somewhere around 240 Paulinian verses, about a 1/2 dozen OT verses and perhaps a dozen or so Gospel verses. Noah is right when he says you
How is
because I just don't see it. And I'm talking about the BULK of his post.
Well, this is where you try to show him where he's wrong on so many counts. Not run away like you did in EoG.
First of all a diplomat is a representative of a government who conducts relations in the name of the government.
Noah, at times, may be seen as somewhat brusque, but he IS to the point and does not mince words. His arguments are laid out very well and he backs them up. He's left himself open to attack from 'the other side'...so to speak. This was another chance for a bunch of 'Godless heathens' to see your side of things. Why do you back off like this?
If by "respect" you mean he doesn't believe in your point of view...well....

Jesse Leigh

G'morning Gawen!

Again, we operate from a different paradigm concerning the Bible. You look at the messenger and I look at the Author and the Message. Personally, I wouldn't care if Mickey Mouse wrote a passage of the Bible, much less the Apostle Paul - a person picked (to put it mildly) by Christ Himself. These people (quite obviously we're not including Mickey here ) are merely conduits delivering the message(s) of God.

I do not "run away" from anything - ever. OTOH sometimes I do walk away for a variety of reasons. There are times when it is prudent to talk and times when it is pointless to proceed any further. You yourself must know this, for you impose restrictions upon forum members, editing posts, deleting posts, moving them to "Elsewhere." Surely we members retain the right to also moderate ourselves. Too, for me, there is the matter of time constraint, which has not yet abated.

I don't believe noah is seeking anything other than contention. Should my perception change, I will again consider engaging in "scholarly" (your word) discussion with him. At the moment this is not my impression and so I choose not to entertain him. I believe it is perfectly within my province to choose silence when I think it is called for.

Your own moderators edited his post because of insulting and inflammatory language. Just because it has been edited now doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Jesse.

Edited to add: You might want to consult Websters (or another reputable dictionary) prior to correcting people (especially those of us who write for a living). Websters says of "diplomacy" (in part): "adroitness or artfulness in securing advantages without arousing hostility: address or tact in conduct of affairs." JFYI & FR. - Jess.

Sven

Umm, do you believe everyone who simply claims to be chosen by Jesus/god and just to deliver his message?

Jesse Leigh

G'morning Sven!

Of course not.

Jesse.

Gawen

Well, I hope, after you calm down, you come back and at least try to refute noah.

And here's a great start! Would you please post what verse/s where Jesus himself, in His words, picks Paul as his proxy?

I don't see noah as coming here to cause strife or to goad or bait people. But he does have a point to be argued for...or against.
"Diplomats" are also human. Surely you don't shy away from everyone who loses their temper or raises their voice to you? Wouldn't you consider yourself (as a Witness {your words}) a diplomat of Jesus or perhaps the kingdom of God? Would Jesus turn away from noah? Would Paul?

I have yet to see a Christian theist refute noah, although they've tried.

Sheshbazzar

First, as promised, I'll reiterate my question,

The Law says; "Your eye SHALL NOT pity...""

You have stated here repeatedly noah, that the "Jews" and "Rabbis" DO observe, keep, and obey The Law.

So go, and ask this question of whatever Jew it is whose opinion you respect.
but your highly edited reply did not clearly address THIS question.
Ask "the webamster <sic> of Kosher Judaism and adminsistrator of the Jews for Judaism forum",
this, exactly as it is here written;
(you have displayed that you do know how to "cut, paste, and post" you should not need to "edit" a word)
I will look forward to seeing his reply here, exactly as he replies, without your editing 'skills' being applied.
Now if you will just do it, rather than again posting another long recitation of all of the verses in the Bible that you despise and mishandle, in my next post I might find time and space to list and explain some of the many reasons why I "do not keep the commandments of g-d".
One reason appears directly above, my eye has pity, I have compassion, I do not take vengeance, I do spare, I forgive. I am therefore a breaker of the commandment, "Your eye shalt not pity.." fully guilty and without repentance or remorse, I was condemned.
And condemned of this one, I was condemned of all, and worthy of The Laws penalty and curse, for "Cursed be he that confirms not all the words of this Law to do them:" (Devarim / Deut. 27:26) and was condemned to die: (Devarim / Deut. 17:12)

TomboyMom

Then why are you posting?

You do realize that the purpose of this forum is to argue, right? And that this is not a Christian forum; quite the contrary.

I think noah is one of the sharpest debaters we've seen here in a long time. He attacks the argument, not the individual. He cites support for his assertions. He makes strong stands and defends them, and he obviously knows his stuff. If you think you can show him wrong, go for it. But here's a big hint: preaching ain't gonna do it. You have to make a coherent argument and cite support for your assertions, as noah does. If you think scripture supports your position, cite it. For example, does Jesus anywhere give any inidication that his followers do not need to follow his father's commandments?

The issue is not spirit or letter, it's whether to follow the law at all. Many modern Jews believe in following the spirit of the law, but they do not say the law has been revoked or they do not have to follow it at all, as Christians do. They question is, why do Christians not believe they have to follow the law, when Jesus tells them repeatedly to do so? I don't understand why Christians don't follow Jesus' words.