rlogan

Interesting discussion.

Perhaps part of the issue is that under the (universally accepted ) Doherty-type approach we have a spiritual Jesus that over considerable time becomes a literal character.

A large portion of his character is mined from the HB. But it is also possible that oral tradition by the time of Gospel construction placed some constraints on the character or the stories. Some of this may have been a bit inconsistent with HB prophesy - but not so dramatically that one cannot utilize both a deeply rooted oral fiction along with the nearly matching HB prophesy.

Close enuff for Jesus, anyway.

Yuri Kuchinsky

Hello, Toto,

Yes, these quotes are relevant, but they only touch upon some of the evidence that Loisy analysed.

The key to the whole story is the quartodecimanism of the earliest Christians. They believed that Easter/Passover should always be celebrated on the 14th Nissan (i.e. together with the Jews) regardless of the day of the week -- rather than on a Sunday.

But there's a fundamental conflict between the quartodecimanism and the 3 days in the tomb stories. The latter are intrinsically linked with the Sunday Easter observance.

Here's one of the key early passages that Loisy is relying upon. This is what Jesus tells one of the criminals who were crucified along with him,

(Lk 23:43) Amen, I say to you, _today_ you will be with me in Paradise.

So there's no 3 days in the tomb here.

These themes are explored throughout the 2 books by Loisy that you've referenced.

All the best,

Yuri

John Powell

POWELL:
It's Rabbi Eleazar (of various spellings) SON OF Azariah.

The debate in the Talmud is about what "for 3 days" means, NOT what "for 3 days and 3 nights" means. As far as I can tell, the Rabbi commentators would agree that "for 3 days and 3 nights" meant, as a minimum, parts of 3 days and parts of 3 nights.

See a Jerusalem Talmud version at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acad...habbat-9-3.htm

And two Babylonian Talmud versions at
http://www.come-and-hear.com/shabbath/shabbath_86.html
and a shorter one at
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t01/t0117.htm

As I read this, it's clear to me that the issue they were struggling with is how long is "for 3 days." The minimum that 3 weekdays can be is 24 hours and a little bit, which equals parts of 4 half-day periods and the maximum is 72 hours or 6 complete half-day periods. For the minimum example: sex just before sunset on Friday afternoon and semen discharge just after sunset on Sunday night would be parts of 3 days and parts of 4 periods: sliver of Friday (period 1), all of Saturday night (period 2), all of Saturday day (period 3), and a sliver of Sunday night (period 4). The total time, however, would be 24 hours and a little bit.

Apparently, some Rabbis were suggesting parts of 4 periods fulfills the letter of the law, but others thought it was cheating. How could God accept only 1 day and a little bit as satisfying 3 days? So, some Rabbis argued that the 3 days had to be 5 periods. That, however, can be a minimum of 1.5 full days if you only have a sliver of a period on both sides. For example, sex just before sunset on Friday afternoon and semen discharge just after sunrise on Sunday would be parts of 5 half-day periods: sliver of Friday (period 1), all of Saturday night and day (periods 2, 3), all of Sunday night (period 4), and a sliver of Sunday day (period 5.)

Apparently, other Rabbis thought that 1.5 complete days and a little bit would still be cheating. "You don't even have 2 days," they might have asked themselves, "so how can you count it as 3?" So, they added the ruling that if the first period wasn't complete (it was only a partial period) then you had to make up the loss in the sixth period. That would comprise the equivalent time of 5 complete periods or 2.5 full days if you started on a partial period. However, if you started with a complete first period then it would be a minimum of 2 full days and a little bit. That way the "3 days" would be at least 2 days and a little bit.

I find it highly unlikely that Jews, who were so worried about how long such times were and how far they could walk on the Sabbath and such things, would treat a statement like "for 3 days and 3 nights" in the vague way that some Christian apologists suggest as meaning "parts of 3 days and 2 nights."

What's funny is that apparently this issue is because Moses decided that the people should not have sex while preparing for the appearance of God and because later Rabbis thought this decision for that specific event should become part of the everyday life of Jews in an unrelated "discharge the semen" way. God didn't order sexual inactivity. God just ordered Moses to sanctify the people (pour oil out in their behalf and say a prayer?) and to have the people wash their clothes that day and the following day and then come to the mountain early on the third day. God had a sensitive nose, I guess. As to the Rabbis, Moses didn't say anything about discharging semen. He just told the men to refrain from sex as they prepared to see God.

John Powell

David Mooney

Hello Steve and all. Here are some websites that explain the meaning of Onah. An Onah was a time period, either a day, or a night, or in the case of a woman's menses, 30 days. When Azariah said a day and a night are a period of time, it was in reference to the Jewish rules of sex and sexual impurities.

Onah is found in Exodus 21:10 where it refers to a man's sexual obligations to his wife. In the Talmuds, Onah was a specialized term referring not only to a man's sexual obligations to his wife, but of periods of time regarding the times of uncleanliness following childbirth, menstrual cycle, and the anticipation of her menses, and such.

First, a definition of Onah:
http://www.voatzot.org/article/20

Then sexuality in Judaism:

http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/~tomshoem...Sexuality.html

Another defintion of Onah:

http://www.inner.org/glossary/gloss_o.htm

More on Onah:

http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/dafyom...s/ni-dt-63.htm

And others:

http://www.yoatzpt.org/article/13
http://www.yoatzot.org/article/20
http://www.yoatzot.org/article/11
http://www.yoatzot.org/article/43
http://www.yoatzot.org/article/30
http://www.yoatzot.org/search
http://www.yoatzot.org/article/36

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm

http://www.hir2.org/torah/rabbi/metzora57.html
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/sex.htm


The use of the word "Onah" in Judaism is replete with sexual connotations. It was a time period, almost always a daytime Onah and a nightime Onah. Then there was an Onah of about 30 days, described in one of the links above about a woman anticipating her menses.

If part of an daytime Onah could be counted as BOTH a day and a night there is nothing about that in the Hebrew writings. The rabbis are careful to divide the 24-hour period into two separate Onah's. Since each daytime and each nightime each made an Onah, it appears that some Christian commentators have confused that to mean one day AND one night make only one Onah. This is not the case. The 24-hour period consisted of two Onah's and as such any part of a day could be counted as a day and any part of a night could be counted as a night. Therefore, a day and a night need not be 72 hours, but need only consist of portions of each time period. Thus, three days and three nights need not be exactly 72 hours but should include at least two full 24-hour days and portions of a day and portions of a night, depeding on when (night or day) the event being counted began.

Also, even if Azariah meant that a day and a night together made one Onah, and a portion of the Onah was counted as a whole, then the inerrantists still have a problem. If one day and one night made an Onah, then if one of these two time periods were missing it wouldn't be an Onah in the first place. A portion of a day would not be an Onah unless it consisted of part of the night. Then, as long as part of a day and part of a night was represented, you would have an Onah and a portion of it would count as a whole.

Consider the 30 day Onah. As long as part of 30 days (28 full days and parts of two others were represented) you would have the Onah of her period. Now if I wanted to be silly I could claim on the morning of day one since a portion of an Onah is considered as the whole I could tell my wife to forego the last 29 days and just claim day one as a whole 30 day Onah. Obviously, it was not intended to be reckoned that way. It was meant to have at least a portion of 30 days in it.

The same way with the inerrantist reckoning of an Onah where a few minutes of a daytime counted as both a day and a night. If you use the standard inerrantist interpretation of Azariah's statement that a day and a night made one Onah then a few minutes of daytime would still not be a complete Onah because it did not consist of at least a night time portion.

When you read all the rabbis together with Azariah's statement concerning an Onah it becomes clear that he meant a day and a night each made an Onah. And a portion of a (Onah) day or a (Onah) night made an Onah.

The countdown also began with the portion of the 24-hour day that the event being counted from began (see one of the links above). If the Onah began in daytime, it was reckoned back to sunrise, not sunset of the previous day. So even if Onah was the appropriate term to count the period of Jesus death, he was only in the tomb two daytime Onah's (Friday and Saturday) and two or parts of two nightime Onah's (Friday and Saturday night). Two daytime Onahs and two nightime Onahs.

Someone on this thread has already posted this (please forgive me for not remembering the name).

--------------------------------
An earlier verse [Vayikra, 19:13] says, "Do not oppress your fellow man, nor steal from him; do not leave [the payment for] his work with you overnight, until the morning." The Gemara [Bava Metzia, 110b] explains that the verse in Vayikra refers to a day worker, who may collect his wage throughout the night [he has to be paid by daybreak], while our verse refers to a night worker, who has to be paid by sunset of the following day. Rashi in Vayikra explains that "the Torah gives the employer one onah [an onah is a 'time-period' of either daytime or nighttime] to come up with the money [to pay the wages]."
---------------------------------
DAVID
Notice that the daytime worker must be paid by the following sunrise, which means the extra nightime period is an extra Onah. If the one Onah was already a day AND a night, then the worker wouldn't have to be paid by sunset of the next day. The nightime worker's boss has an extra Onah (over by sunset of the next daytime period) in which to pay him.
------------------------------------

The Divrei Yisrael has many problems with this. Firstly, just because we give the employer a few extra hours to come up with the money, does that mean he will succeed in finding it? We ourselves know of countless of individuals who needed money and didn't come up with it, certainly not in a short time span. A similar question was asked by Rebbe Yechezkel of Kuzmir on the statement of our Sages, regarding the expenses for Shabbos, that Hashem says, "Borrow on My account, and I'll pay it back." How will this guarantee help if there is no one who wishes to lend the money? Similarly in our case, even if he's given a bit of time to come up with the money, if he doesn't succeed, he'll be in violation of a Torah prohibition!

Furthermore, we may be able to understand the case of the night worker, whose boss may not have any money at night, but could possibly come up with it the next day. But for the day worker, if the boss didn't have any money to pay him at the end of the day, what good will it do to give him the following night to find the money? How will he find money in the darkness of the night, when everyone's asleep? And if he doesn't pay up first thing in the morning, he, too, will be in violation of a Torah prohibition!

Finally, he asks, what does Rashi mean by "the Torah gives him an onah"? It should simply say that he is given the extra bit of time to find the money. It seems like the Torah itself is giving him a "gift" of an onah to find the money.
-------------------
DAVID
Again, the extra Onah was either a nightime or a daytime period (see above) and if one really wanted to be a jerk he could tell his boss three minutes into the Onah, "Well Boss, a part of the Onah is as the whole so I want to be paid right now!"
----------------------

In truth, answers the Divrei Yisrael, our days and nights are not our own - they belong to the Torah. For doesn't it say, "The book of the Torah shall not depart from your mouth, and you shall engage in it day and night" [Yehoshua, 1:8]. Similarly it says [Yirmiyahu, 33:25], "If not for my covenant [the Torah] day and night, I would not have established the laws of Heaven and Earth." However, not everyone is capable of maintaining such a regimen, as the Gemara [Brachos, 35b] informs us that many tried to do like Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai [learning Torah as a full-time occupation] and did not succeed. Those who followed the ways of Rabbi Yishmael, who called for adjoining working for a livelihood to their Torah studies, were successful. This is also stressed by our Sages in Pirkei Avos, "Torah is beautiful when accompanied by earning of a livelihood," and "If there is no flour, there is no Torah" [Chapters 2 and 3].

Therefore, when the Torah "sees" that man needs parnasa [livelihood] and wealth in order to fulfill the Torah and its mitzvos, it goes "beyond the letter of the Law" and donates one of its time periods [onah] so that man may engage in a livelihood. Since the Torah has given its "permission", the person who engages in his livelihood with such an intention [to fulfill the Torah and its mitzvos], will certainly be successful in finding it - even in the dark of night. Similarly, the question about "Borrowing on My account" is also not a problem. Since it's Hashem and His Torah that bids the man to borrow, certainly he will obtain the loan.
--------------------------------------
DAVID
We can see from the links above and the commentary the Onah was a period of either daytime or nighttime, and in rare cases, 30 days. Azariah's vague comment that a day and a night make an Onah can be understood in the writings of all the other rabbis on the subject who understood a daytime and a nighttime each were an Onah. In Leviticus God calls X and Y and Z an Abomination (singular) and likewise a day and a night could be called an Onah and still each be an Onah unto themselves.

Remember this: Jesus was only two daytime Onahs and two nightime Onahs in the tomb so the inerrantist quibble will not work.

Sensei Meela

Wow...Thanks!

Steven Carr

Thanks for the comprehensive information.

Could somebody remind me why rules about menstruation, conjugal rights and duties are the best rules to apply to determine how long Jesus spent in the ground?

Surely Jesus was not menstruating, as he was dead.

WILLOWTREE

Hi David:

Massive argument you offer.

Jesus specifically compared His death and resurrection to Jonah and his three day and three night imprisonment in the fishes belly. Using this as a reference, Jesus said He would rise after three days and three nights.

In the greek, the word for "days" is dual, it could mean portions OR it means a 24 hour period.

Jesus meant what He said.

Three days and and three nights means three 24 hour periods/72 hours.

Christ was crucified on Passover in 33 AD.

In that year Passover fell on a Wednesday.

This means He had expired on the cross and was entombed by sundown.

Wednesday sundown to Thursday sundown = 1 day and night/24 hour period.

Thursday sundown to Friday sundown = 1 day and night/24 hour period.

Friday sundown to Saturday sundown = 1 day and night/24 hour period.

As soon as the third 24 hour period expired on Saturday - RESURRECTION.

source: Dr. Gene Scott.

John Powell

POWELL:
If an onah could be a "day" then that could mean the 12-hour daylight period, the 24-hour weekday, or any continuous 24-hour time period.


POWELL:
Apparently, the term was used by Jews for "time period" although the Tanakh (Old Testament) did not use it in that way.


POWELL:
This is a typo. The "v" should be "y."


POWELL:
Thanks for the references.


POWELL:
Yes there is, David. It's implied in the discussion about women discharging semen on the third day. Since (in analogy with part of a daytime period counts as the whole daytime period) part of a day counts as a whole, "three days" can be as little as parts of four 12-hour onahs. You could have a sliver of the first day (onah 1), the complete second day (onahs 2 and 3), and a sliver of the third day (onah 4). That first onah would count as a complete 24 hour weekday. Likewise, the fourth onah.


POWELL:
Well, you can loosely say that "a day and a night make a full day."

What you say below to support your claim that "this is not the case" is correct, but it does not imply that "this is not the case."


POWELL:
Right.


POWELL:
It's Rabbi Eliezar (of various spellings) SON OF Azariah. You're right that they would still have a problem, but not the problem you claim below.


POWELL:
Huh? If X then ~X? You just suggested assuming, for the sake of argument, that Eliezar meant that an onah was a 24-hour day. So why wouldn't a 24-hour day be an onah under that assumption? Furthermore, if part of an onah counts as the whole then why wouldn't merely part of a 24-hour onah count as the whole?

The problem that inerrantists would still have if Eliezar meant that a 24-hour day is an onah is that it would not change "3 days and 3 nights" to mean "3 days and 2 nights."


POWELL:
You could skip the rest of the month if the menstrual onah were defined as "a month" and "a part counts as the whole." For example, if you work on the last day of January and the first day of February then how many months did you work? Parts of two.

As you point out, David, this "onah" is defined as 30 days. The question I have is whether this means 30 daylight periods ignoring the nights or 30 weekdays. It makes a little bit of a difference since if it means 30 weekdays then one can finish on a night, but not if it means 30 daylight periods.

Either way, this is similar to the "3 days and 3 nights" requirement.


POWELL:
Sort of. However, a few minutes of a daytime counts as part of a 24-hour day, yes?


POWELL:
Not so, David. You're not being consistent with your hypothetical. If an onah in this case means a 24-hour day and "part counts as a whole" then a few minutes of daytime WOULD count as a complete onah.


POWELL:
That's not clear at all, David.

What Azariah's son, Rabbi Eliezar, may have meant is that the onah of relevance with the issue of women discharging semen on the third day is the weekday rather than the 12-hour daylight period. If it had meant the 12-hour daylight period then "the third day" could be focusing on daylight times only, ignoring the nights. In that case, if she had sex on Friday day and discharge on Sunday day she would be clean, but for Friday day sex and Sunday night (prior to Sunday day) discharge she would be unclean. If she had sex on the previous Friday night then she would still need to discharge no earlier than Sunday day to be clean.

The comments by later Rabbis implies they understood the "day" of "on the third day" to mean a 24-hour time period, but they disagreed about things like whether it meant parts of 3 weekdays which might be as little as 24 hours and a bit or if it meant more than 48 hours.

You need to remember that most common people in ancient times used "days" in the meaning of daylight periods, ignoring the nights. Gradually people came to deal more with counting the nights as part of a longer 24-hour day which officially began at about sunset for the Jews.


POWELL:
Maybe me?


POWELL:
The onah above seems to be the 12-hour variety.


POWELL:
It's still not clear to me what Eliezar meant, but I think the comments by the Rabbis make it clear that they would understand "3 days and 3 nights" to mean at least parts of 3 daylight periods and parts of 3 nights or parts of six 12-hour onahs.


POWELL:
I tend to agree that "a day and a night" or a 24-hour day could reasonably be called an onah, but I thought you disagreed with that.


POWELL:
The important thing is that for a Friday afternoon crucifixion and a Sunday resurrection there were only two nights, not three. All this talk about onahs doesn't change that.

The number of daytime periods is controversial. Maybe it was only one (if burial was after sunset and resurrection was before sunrise). Maybe 2. Maybe 3.

John Powell

Amaleq13

This website agrees with your claim that Passover fell on a Wednesday when Jesus was crucified but does not agree with the year.

According to their source (U.S. Naval Observatory Astronomical Applications Department), Passover in 33 fell on a Sunday but it fell on a Wednesday in 31.

If Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday Passover, it would appear that the astronomical evidence requires that to have taken place two years earlier than your source claims.

David Mooney

DAVID
Not according to Jewish dictionaries, commentators, and Jews I have chatted with on the Usenet. An Onah could be a day (sunrise to sunset) or a night (sunset to sunrise) but according to the Jews themselves never a 24-hour period consisting of a daytime and a nigttime (which would be two Onah's according to Jewish reckoning). Furthermore, a 24-hour period (say 3pm Wednesday to 3pm Thursday) would be, according to the Jews themselves three Onahs or part of three Onahs with one whole Onah inbetween. You need to study Jewish terminology and usage {edited} I have supplied multiple references and none of them count a 24-hour period as a Onah or a continuous 24-hour period as an Onah.

{edited}An informed Jew and someone informed on the usage would know that an Onah was NOT a 24-hour day or a 24-hour continuous period. {edited} An Onah is either a daytime period or a nighttime period and can be as long as 30 days in special circumstances. But the Jews do not reckon a 24-hourt period as an Onah (if they do, just show me where the do) or a 24-hour continuous period as an Onah (if they do show me where they do). I have shown the definitions and usages and they all agree that an Onah is at least a 12-hour period of daytime and at least a 12-hour period of nighttime. {edited}

DAVID
Yes, the Rabbis used Onah as a time period denoting either a daytime or a nighttime portion and in rare cases a 30-day portion. The Tanach doesn't use it that way, it uses it in the sense pf a man's obligations to his wife.

DAVID
Welcome.

DAVID
Implied or inferred?

DAVID
An Onah was a daytime period or a nighttime period. That means three Jewish calendar days could contain anywhere from four to six Onahs. If the event to be counted began Friday afternoon, that would be daytime Onah 1 and calendar day one. Sunday afternoon would be daytime Onah 3 and calendar day three. This three day period had five Onah's (three daytime Onah's and two nighttime Onahs) and if the three day period period to be counted began just after sunset on Thursday, then Thursday night would be nighttime Onah 1 and calendar day 1 and Saturday night would be nighttime Onah 3 and calendar day 3 and Sunday daytime would be daytime Onah 3 as well as the calendar day 3. In this case, we have six Onahs. On the other hand, if the event to be counted began on Friday just before sunset (daytime Onah 1 and calendar day 1) and lasted until Saturday just after sunset at the beginning of the third calendar day we would have only four Onahs (or Onoth). The partial Friday afternoon Onah and the Saturday night Onah along with the full two Onahs that occurred on the second calendar day (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset) make only four Onahs. {edited} The Jews did NOT use Onah for a day AND a night. The only Jews that claim this are apostate Jews who embrace Christianity and hold to a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday morning resurrection. You will find no non-christian Jewish sources that claim any part of an Onah is both a day AND a night. None. The first Onah on Friday afternoon would be reckoned back only to sunrise and NOT sunset of the previous night. The fourth Onah during Saturday night would only be reckoned to Sunday morning. It would not be reckoned until Sunday at sunset. If it were, that would be five Onah's, not four.

Onah's were rabbinical terms and were not exactly the same as calendar days; they could overlap calendar days. A part of a calendar day could be reckoned as a whole day and a part of a calendar night could be reckoned as a whole night. A calendar day and night could be reckoned as a whole calendar day and night if at least a portion of each was included. But Onah's (which was a term the rabbinics used) could overlap civil days. That is why Jesus was in the tomb three calendar days but only two daytime Onahs (barely) and two nighttime Onahs (barely).

DAVID
I can say a day and a night make a day without any problem. But I cannot say a part of an Onah is a day and a night. Since an Onah was either a day or a night and part of an Onah was reckoned as the whole, a partial daytime Onah would be counted as a whole daytime Onah. From Friday 3pm to sunset Friday would be daytime Onah 1. It would be reckoned only as far back as sunrise on the same calendar day. The nighttime that followed would be nighttime Onah 1. If a woman began to menstruate on Sunday morning an hour before the sun rose that would be nightime Onah 1 also. It would be reckoned as if it had begun at the previous sunset.

DAVID
I realized after I sent the message I had made a mistake. Nevertheless, thanks for pointing it out as others may not have caught the mistake.

DAVID
No, you lack understanding is all. You haven't researched it enough as I have done. I spent long hours researching this and many more discussing this with Jews on Yahoo Chat and even corresponding with Jews at JewsforJudaism.org. {edited}

They explained it to me like this. A piece of ham and two slices of bread make a ham sandwich. If you didn't have the ham but had the two slices of bread, you would not have a ham sandwich. If you had the slice of ham but didn't have the bread you wouldn't have a ham sandwich. Likewise, if the Christian spin of Eliezar is correct, then if you had the day but didn't have the night, you didn't have the Onah. In order for it to be considered as an Onah in the way it is grammatically worded and spun by the Christians, it has to have day and night or parts of day and night to be an Onah. Lacking any one of those elements it would cease to be an Onah. So an event that lasted only three hours on Friday afternoon could not be an Onah under the Christian spin of Eliezar's rule because the time period did not include both elements. It was just a part of a day, but did not, and would not, qualify as part of an Onah unless it included at least parts of both.

{edited}I think I will stick with the Jewish interpretation in this case John. You can assert, and claim things are not so, but you are always short on evidence. {edited}

DAVID
Well, of course. The Missing Night is the hole that sinks the Titanic. Since Jewish scholars who have studied the Talmmud all their lives are sure that Eliezar's quote meant that a day and a night ~each~ made an Onah and back it up with numerous other opinions from Talmudic scholars that state plainly that a day and a night each are an Onah the Christian spin on Eliezar's quote is a moot point. But we have to deal with it and so do the Jews. The Jews have made it plain that even if Eliezar had meant a day AND a night combined made an Onah then any portion of a day without a portion of a night would not constitute an Onah. However, it would constitute a whole civil day for counting purposes. That is why it can be said Jesus rose from the dead on the third day. That is why it can be said he would be in the tomb "three days" when in fact only a whole day and small portions of two others existed.

DAVID
Not under rabbinical reckoning. The rabbis were very stern on this 30 day usage. {edited} I have hashed this out for years John. Over the last 15 years I have discussed this topic numerous times. The Rabbis would probably laugh at your statment above. Out of sheer politeness they would probably do it inside, but I am sure they would find it funny. No, the 30 day cycle is strictly adhered to, unlike your example. The only two days that aren't full days in the 30 day cycle are the beginning and ending dates. As in the ham sandwich example above, this Onah consisted of 30 days so it had to have at least 30 days in it, even if the first and last days were partial ones. The rabbis don't buy the logic that a person can count only one day of the 30 and get off under the excuse "a part of an Onah counts as a whole". They accept parts of 30 days but anything 29 days or less does not count. Again, I am telling you what the rabbis say and not what John Powell says. {edited} If he had read some of those links he would have seen the 30-day count sometimes overlaps calendar months and is not considered over at the end of the first calendar month. The 30 day cycle must be completed but the first and last days need not be complete days.

DAVID
READ THE LINKS I GAVE. Some discuss the 30-day cycle and should resolve the issue {edited}


DAVID
No, not with the Onah. With the daytime Onah, it goes back to sunrise. With the nightime Onah, it goes back to sunset. As for civil days, a part of a civil day is also sometimes reckoned as a whole day and a night is sometimes reckoned as a whole night.

DAVID
{edited}According to Jewish authoritis ( which I believe have more knowledge than John Powell) the Eliezar statement means a day and a night each make an Onah. But, even if the grammar necessitated that a day and a night combined made an Onah, then the Onah would have to have at least a portion of both elements to be considered an Onah. {edited}

DAVID
{edited}We are talking of JEWISH usage, not Powell usage. Specifically, we are taliking of Jewish rabbinical usage. {edited} I see that if it took a combination of day and night to make an Onah, then how could a day be an Onah? Just like a piece of ham and bread make a ham sandwich take away one of those items and you no longer have a ham sandwich.

The rabbis know that a day and a night each make an Onah but for the sake of dealing with Christian apologists who use Eliezar's comments to make an "end run" they state that even if a day and a night combined make an Onah, then a day could not be an Onah because an Onah must have a day AND a night to be an Onah. So if Eliezar somehow took a different view than all the other rabbis in the Talmuds then the Christian apologists would still come up short. A portion of an Onah would have to consist of at least a portion of a day and a portion of a night because if it lacked the night portion or the day portion it would no longer be an Onah, under the terms of Eliezar. Keep in mind the Jews don't believe that Eliezar meant that; they believe he meant that a day and a night each made an Onah but if one wants to pursue the matter they cannot still win becuase an onah must contain at least a part of the two. A man and a woman make a couple but if there is only a man or only a woman there is no couple. The Jews see this passage the same way when a stubborn Christian apologist claims that Eliezar did NOT mean that a day and a night each make an Onah, despite all the claims of the other rabbis in the Talmud notwithstanding.

DAVID
{edited}If you take the time to study the usage of Onah in regards to day or night, you will see, very clearly, 1)that an Onah was either a day or a night, 2) the husband's sexual duties to his wife, or 3) the 30-day menses cycle. The rabbis have no problem with this. {edited} I have studied the usage much and know the rabbis are right in this case. Everywhere else in the Talmud and even modern day writings, the Onah refers to an 12-hour interval or the 30 day onath benoit. {edited} Maybe John can sharew with us why this is not so clear? Maybe he has some expertise on the subject? Maybe he can show us passages where Onah was used unequivocally to a 24-hour period?

DAVID
{edited}Where is your evidence that Eliezar MAY have meant this? The Jewish rabbis know nothing of this. Perhaps you can enlighten them on where they have gone astray. If they have been wrong all these years you could be a hero by letting them know of their error. Now I am not claiming the mere fact they are Jews automatically makes them correct on all things Jewish but {edited} I will take the Jewish side until shown I am wrong.

DAVID
Evidence? Or do you feel that the Jews have the burden to prove you wrong? You obviously haven't read on this issue because your question is already answered in the Talmuds. So much the worse for you. I will not do your homework for you. You have Google. Do your own research. Stop trying to bait people in doing your research for you.

DAVID
Yes, the word for "day" in its civil sense was, in Jesus day, most often used in its daylight sense. That is why "3 days and 3 nights" presents such a problem for the inerrantists. They try to swithc your focus on "day" to "Onah" and claim an Onah referred to a 24-hour period (which is known to be false by the Jews). But Jesus said he would be in the tomb "three days and three nights", so days and nights used in their civil calendar sense would be a little different from Onah.

{edited}

DAVID
I agree.

DAVID
Well, according to the Jews I have contacted over the years, an Onah was either a day or a night. According to the websites, it remains the same. I am just saying if the Christian apologist tries to claim a day and a night is an Onah by appealing to Eliezar, then he is wrong, as the Jews have pointed out.

{edited}Adios.