Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 10-01-2009, 05:25 AM

Simple argument this.

It's main text was written in Alexandria in Greek. One of its main cult's books are also Greek.

Which makes me ask - are there several Christianities? - one of the more important ones being an English speaking version founded on the KJV, other main ones being Spanish, Russian, Greek and Coptic.

What is the relationship between language and religious expression?

spin · 10-01-2009, 06:04 AM

Don't believe every fool you come across on internet.

spin

Clivedurdle · 10-01-2009, 06:10 AM

I'm proposing something quite subtle - that the language creates the religion - that religions cannot actually be transplanted from one place to another, you always get something new once you put it into another language, so therefore Judaism is by definition Greek as that is its main language of expression.

show_no_mercy · 10-01-2009, 06:45 AM

I don't understand where you got the idea that the main text of Hebrew scriptures were originally written in Greek. There are a lot of theophoric Hebrew names that only make sense in Hebrew. When they were translated into Greek, they lost their meaning.

Clivedurdle · 10-01-2009, 06:59 AM

Where did I write original?

My point is that the process of translating by definition creates something new.

dog-on · 10-01-2009, 07:05 AM

Just the fact that the material gets exposed to a whole new group of individuals through simple translation, would seem to make such transformations inevitable.

As a matter of fact, isn't that basically what Christianity is?

Clivedurdle · 10-01-2009, 07:06 AM

Quote:

There’s the story of the man assigned to buy a particular yacht, only to find that the yacht has been restored with parts from an older boat – and the older boat has been fitted with all the replaced parts from the newer boat. So many parts have been exchanged between the two boats that the buyer is perplexed. Which one could properly be said to be the boat that he was assigned to buy? The story is easy to understand, but the question it brings up is not at all easy to answer – and it can be expanded to call into question the entirety of the concepts of identity and existence.

http://www.whatzup.com/Features/br101206.html

spin · 10-01-2009, 07:14 AM

The Mishna, Talmuds, and other rabbinical works were written in Hebrew or Aramaic. That is the continuation of the Jewish religious tradition. They pass from the Hebrew texts of the bible to the Hebrew and Aramaic rabbinical works. Those Hebrew and Aramaic rabbinical works are the backbone of Jewish communities throughout the world.

spin

Clivedurdle · 10-01-2009, 07:16 AM

Why do we discuss entities "xianity" or "judaism"? Do they exist?

Are we not better creating the equivalent as in biology of clear classifications and defining points where entities are not breeding with each other?

Our historical classifications may be completely off the wall - a Chinese example is classifying together objects that look the same from a distance!

Judaism should clearly have a major classification of post Septaguint, an equivalent in Xianity would be post KJV.

This means questions would be asked about what actually was there beforehand, or are we again plagued with the invention of tradition as with scouting.

The collating, translating, publishing and dissemination of something should be taken as critical change points that form the framework of research.

The process of saying something in a new language should never be assumed to be "simple translation" but as the creation, the invention, of something utterly new.

Clivedurdle · 10-01-2009, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

The Mishna, Talmuds, and other rabbinical works were written in Hebrew or Aramaic. That is the continuation of the Jewish religious tradition. They pass from the Hebrew texts of the bible to the Hebrew and Aramaic rabbinical works. Those Hebrew and Aramaic rabbinical works are the backbone of Jewish communities throughout the world.

spin

And the Septaguint had no effect? The reality of Judaism being part of the Greek world for how long had no effect?

The reality that the majority of Jews have never been Hebrew and aramaic speakers had no effect?

What is the real background not the propaganda one?

10-01-2009, 05:25 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Judaism is actually a Greek religion. Simple argument this. It's main text was written in Alexandria in Greek. One of its main cult's books are also Greek. Which makes me ask - are there several Christianities? - one of the more important ones being an English speaking version founded on the KJV, other main ones being Spanish, Russian, Greek and Coptic. What is the relationship between language and religious expression?

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10-01-2009, 06:04 AM	#2
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Don't believe every fool you come across on internet. spin

10-01-2009, 06:10 AM	#3
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I'm proposing something quite subtle - that the language creates the religion - that religions cannot actually be transplanted from one place to another, you always get something new once you put it into another language, so therefore Judaism is by definition Greek as that is its main language of expression.

10-01-2009, 06:45 AM	#4
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	I don't understand where you got the idea that the main text of Hebrew scriptures were originally written in Greek. There are a lot of theophoric Hebrew names that only make sense in Hebrew. When they were translated into Greek, they lost their meaning.

10-01-2009, 06:59 AM	#5
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Where did I write original? My point is that the process of translating by definition creates something new.

10-01-2009, 07:05 AM	#6
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	Just the fact that the material gets exposed to a whole new group of individuals through simple translation, would seem to make such transformations inevitable. As a matter of fact, isn't that basically what Christianity is?

10-01-2009, 07:14 AM	#8
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	The Mishna, Talmuds, and other rabbinical works were written in Hebrew or Aramaic. That is the continuation of the Jewish religious tradition. They pass from the Hebrew texts of the bible to the Hebrew and Aramaic rabbinical works. Those Hebrew and Aramaic rabbinical works are the backbone of Jewish communities throughout the world. spin

10-01-2009, 07:16 AM	#9
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Why do we discuss entities "xianity" or "judaism"? Do they exist? Are we not better creating the equivalent as in biology of clear classifications and defining points where entities are not breeding with each other? Our historical classifications may be completely off the wall - a Chinese example is classifying together objects that look the same from a distance! Judaism should clearly have a major classification of post Septaguint, an equivalent in Xianity would be post KJV. This means questions would be asked about what actually was there beforehand, or are we again plagued with the invention of tradition as with scouting. The collating, translating, publishing and dissemination of something should be taken as critical change points that form the framework of research. The process of saying something in a new language should never be assumed to be "simple translation" but as the creation, the invention, of something utterly new.

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