Pilate

I would restate what you said to, "Angels are not God." I agree. They are God-sent. For example:
“Then cried Jesus ... he {God} that sent me is true {i.e. the true God} ...� (John 7:28 KJV)
And, I agree with you that angels have no mandate of their own. Examples:
“What I {Jesus} speak, therefore, I speak just as the Father has told me.� (John 12:50 NRSV) “... the word that you hear is not mine, but is from the Father who sent me.� (John 14:24 NRSV) “Then Jesus answered them, ‘My teaching is not mine but his who sent me.’ � (John 7:16 NRSV)
I also agree with you that angels do not have their own initiative:
“I {Jesus} can do nothing on my own authority.� (John 5:30 RSV) “For I {Jesus} did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.� (John 12:49 NASB) “The son {Jesus} can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do. For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that himself does.� (John 5:19-20 KJV) Jesus said, “This commandment have I received of my Father.� (John 10:18 KJV)

Wouldn't you agree with me that Jesus, had no madate of his own?

Here is something else Jesus said. He quoted a verse from Psalms and then explained why he called himself the "Son of God":
“If those {the angels} to whom God spoke were called “gods�--and the scripture cannot be annulled-- can you say that the one {me} whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God's Son?’ � (John 10:33-36)
Jesus quoted the following verse: “I {God} said You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High {Heb. Elyon }.� (Psalms 82:6 NASB)

Pilate

You find the biblical verses boring?
A spirit is not 'anything' like "a thing." It is a being. So far I have been presenting to you evidence (verses from the Bible), and some explanations of what those verses mean or how they relate to each other. You have not addressed any of those verses. You chose to play the "ostritch to the facts" and "shoot from the hip" at me. I have agreed with you so many times, but you are firghtened to converse with me. You are afraid to face the facts of the Bible. The Bible says "Are not the angels spirits?" Why can't you accept this verse? How much plainer do you want the Bible to say this?
Let us not take this conversation outside the realm of the Bible, into a theoretical argumentative world. Let us face the facts of the Bible and accept them.
take care,
Pilate

Chili

No, they are not Gods but at best are they mainfestations of God since virtues are gifts of God. These come in different qualities but all are manifestations of God so we are not talking about the specifics of each quality.

The right to call them gods (small g) stems from our human condition wherein nothing is righteous in the eyes of God yet goodness flows from the heart of man wherein we are God. When God calls them gods and sons of the Most High he is not talking about angels but about the destiny of the wicked who are both god and [still] human. They are human because they judge wrong even as sons of the Most High and therefore they will die (just as the children of Israel did). The message here is that it is not good enough to be son of god (son of man) but that we must become fully God.

Toto

Are there facts in the Bible? Or just words?

Chili

Yes he did have a mandate of his own. "It is finished" tells me so, but I can see why you hold that position. As I see it his mandate was to do the will of the father, freely, by sacrificing his life for the sins of his world and that is what the gods of Psalm 82 failed to do. The word "freely" is important here, I think, which is much easier said than done.

Exactly. Both were sons of God and both were sons of the Most High with the only difference that Jesus was one with the father and therefore knew the will of the father.

spin

But comparative of what? "[B]etter" comes from "good", "faster" from "fast", but Qewteros?

You were given examples in the entry.

What may be the case is that it is easy to turn the adjectival use into the attributes of a god in translation.


spin

Pilate

To begin with, I never heard of such a word, :huh: (This word does not appear in the New Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon. It also does not exist in Hatch and Redpath -Concordance to the Septuagint. Also, this word has no connection with the Bible.) If you know what you are talking about show us the citations that support the use of this word. Bring them here and explain them, where everyone can see them and everyone can learn.
"Show and tell" please.
Pilate

spin

Liddell and Scott are the be all and end all. It's there to be read. Thayer is to hold the hand of those people who know nothing about Greek. A concordance of the LXX is restricted to the usages perceived in the LXX.

You simply didn't answer the question about what Qewteros was comparative of.


spin

John Kesler

I think that your assumption of parallelism may not be correct.

Since Jesus is better than the angels, this suggests to me that Jesus is not an angel.

Chili

Jesus was an imposter and needed to be crucified and die lest the final one would be worse than the first (Mt.27:64c). The difference between these two would emerge in the absense of death.