aa5874

There are no historical Jesus stories to compare to Don Juan stories.

The Don Juan stories were LEFT untouched, and UNALTERED so the Jesus stories MUST also be LEFT untouched, and UNALTERED in order to do any comparisons.

Let us COMPARE the VERSIONS of gMatthew, Mark, Luke or John just as they were found Canonised with any version of Don Juan.

There is NO comparison. Jesus was described as the Child of a Ghost.

blastula

I started this thread rather facetiously. I know the situations aren't comparable enough to give a proper view of what historians would say.

Are there other comparable religious texts from ancient history to the Jesus texts with comparable available contemporaneous evidence where comparable characters are claimed by historians to probably be real people based on the texts alone?

mountainman

Hey blastula,

I can think of a few.

Plato and the Platonists

The Platonist lineage from the 3rd and early 4th century dealt with their conception of religion via a theology and philosophy and metaphysics that originated with Plato. There were a canon of books that were recognised as the original works of Plato, which were revered and preserved until Nicaea. Additionally, there is evidence of an Apostolic lineage of the Platonic succession starting from one Ammonius Saccas in the 3rd century. The idea of the way the Platonists viewed "theology" / "religion" / "divinity" is expressed in the Platonic ideas about the "One Spirit Soul". For a simple diagram attempting to show the Platonic conception of the f divinity see http://tinyurl.com/3pal2q3 For an extended essay on this see http://tinyurl.com/3fsnj5d


Mani and the Manichaeans

Mani wrote his own canon of books (in his own script!) which included a Gospel of Mani. He is known to have appointed numerous apostles, whom he sent forth between 240 and 270 CE, and who were responsible for the establishment of Manichaean monasteries in the Roman Empire, in Egypt and in Rome. Mani was apparently crucified in the Persian capital city, following a change of political leadership in Sassanis Persia, and his apostles and followers persecuted. Diocletian also persecutes the Manichaeans in the eastern empire c.290 CE on wards. Perhaps Constantine was involved in the this burning and persecution of the Manichaeans, since at that time he was stationed, as a hostage, in the courts and army of Diocletian.

At any rate, after Mani's death his canon of books was gathered up, by members of his Apostolic lineage and succession and the letters and epistles he had written to his apostles, and the history of his life and teachings etc --- were woven into the writings of the Manichaeans of the 4th and subsequent centuries.


Apollonius of Tyana

Generally presumed to be historical after discovery of a major inscription to him. Author of a canon of books that were apparently preserved in the temples of Asclepius in Aegaea, and elsewhere until their total destruction by Constantine c.324 CE.. Quoted by Eusebius as an expert on the issue of the avoidance of sacrifice. Calumnified by Eusebius in his "Against Hierocles". Subject of a massive imperially sponsored biography / history in the early 3rd century. See Philostratus's "The Life of Apollonius of Tyana". Claims are made for prescience, healings, resurrections, etc. He obviously had some form of Apostolic succession , but his memory was obliterated by political motives under Constantine c.324/325 CE, and the temples which hosted his works of literature were either utterly destroyed to their foundations, or closed and subject to prohibitions of use. Seen as a Pythagoraean, and as a healer in the lineage of Apollo and Asclepius. Who were the therapeutae of Asclepius in antiquity? See http://bit.ly/CD6fJ




Best wishes,


Pete

blastula

Thanks, Pete, those are interesting histories, but these texts are attributed to the person in question which is not the case with Jesus.

mountainman

OK lets look at the question again.

Setting aside the LXX for the moment, the Jesus texts are the 4 gospels, acts, Paul letters and a few other letters by the supposed apostles of Jesus. When you say above "comparable characters" are you referring to this "Apostolic Literature"?

blastula

I'm referring to a character like Jesus.

mountainman

Like Buddha or Pythagoras for example? It might help if you paraphrased your question or expanded it - I am not quite following what you mean

ApostateAbe

The great majority of evidences for ancient historical figures are nothing but text. You can have faces on coins and statues, and that is about the only other kind of evidence you have. I think probably the best analogy to Jesus in terms of evidence is Socrates.

blastula

I mean religious figures and religious texts.

blastula

No, the evidence for Socrates is completely different.