Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Unbeliever · 08-28-2003, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy

And when it comes to the standard list of contradictions, SAB has them all. In fact, the list is so long - 1073 items - it's hard to load the page.

Just for the record - there are not really 1073 separate contradictions in that list; each one is listed at least twice - once for each relevant bible verse that pertains. There actually are only 322 contradictions, listed haphazardly (all the ones in the "alphabetical list", sorted by book).

Magus55 · 08-28-2003, 06:12 PM

Unbeliever, just skimming through your list of contradictions, you are way off base on quite a few, and some are completely irrelevant to the question.

Sauron · 08-28-2003, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Unbeliever, just skimming through your list of contradictions, you are way off base on quite a few, and some are completely irrelevant to the question.

But mysteriously, Magus55, you can't seem to refute any of them.

Maybe not so mysterious after all, come to think of it....

Roland · 08-28-2003, 08:33 PM

Luke says that Thomas was present at Jesus' first post-resurrection appearance to the disciples. Luke 24:33-53

John says he was absent. John 20:24

********************************************

Matthew says that Mary Magdalene encountered an angel in the tomb when she first visited on Easter morning. Matt. 28: 1-8

John says she found it empty. John 20: 1-2

unregistered_user_1 · 08-28-2003, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Actually, those passages aren't a contradiction. We can see for example, that John, who was present at the Transfiguration, saw the kingdom of God before his death, in a vision. This account is in Revelation.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

See, the kingdom of God coming down from Heaven to Earth. John saw it happen. Jesus never said they would see it physically happen, He just said they would see it, which they did.

Well, Magus, you've changed a tune since you said this here.

Quote:

Here is Jesus' actual transfiguration. The Kingdom of God did come in Jesus. This event on the mountain was when God the Father spoke out of the clouds to the disciples and Jesus transformed from a mortal human, back to immortality. At this point, He is no longer a mere human, below the angels - He is back at His rightful place, at the right hand of God the Father. This event ushered in the new Kingdom of Christ, or the Age of Grace. At this point, Jesus fulfilled His purpose on Earth, and God the Father spoke to the disciples, telling them to spread the message that Jesus taught.

Interesting to see that you've backed down from that idea; it sounds like you're starting to think about this...

Anyway, what does it matter if John was at the "transfiguration"? Was he there when Jesus gave that speech?

Also, the man did say "some of you" not "one" of you.

"If I choose that he [John] remain until I come [again], what is that to you?" (John 21:22). ~~That's an implication to the people there that the second coming could be within their lifetimes. It's statements like that that made people like Paul tell others to preach the gospel until the second coming, NOT until they got too old for it, as would be expected if he knew that the second coming was NOT going to be in his time!

Paul had also said, in First Corinthians:

Quote:

7:29
But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;

7:30
And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;

7:31
And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

that the time is so short that you shouldn't really even have relations with your wife, among other things. Does that sound as if he believed that the second coming was ~2000 years away?

The reason he thought that was because of the statements by jesus that clearly implied a "soon" second coming. ("some standing here", "this generation"<~~discussed elswhere on this site, etc)

Face it, in context of all this, it's pretty obvious that christ was saying that the second coming would be "soon" and that time has showed him to be wrong.

Godless Wonder · 08-28-2003, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by unregistered_user_1
Well, Magus, you've changed a tune since you said this here.

Interesting to see that you've backed down from that idea; it sounds like you're starting to think about this...

That's what I meant about "doing homework" Last time I brought up Mk 9:1 (not very long ago), Magus did not have this counter argument at the ready.

Quote:

[...]Also, the man did say "some of you" not "one" of you.

True enough, as I already pointed this out, but even so, Magus' argument does seem to bring the thing down from a major contradiction to a rather minor quibble, doesn't it? I mean now if we're admitting hallucinations as a possible way out for "see"ing the "kingdom of god come with power", then it's possible others who were present saw similar hallucinations, but kept it to themselves. (Can't believe I'm defending Magus. OTOH don't imagine for a second that I'm switching sides here.) I still think it's a contradiction, I just think that Magus' (or whoever's it is) clever rationalization takes out most of the sting out of it. Before, it was just absolutely killer: such a succinct one-liner, clearly contradicting reality, with only the weak-sounding "he was refering to the transfiguration" defense. Now, this new defense seems stronger. I have to say, nice job defending on that one, Magus.

Quote:

[...]Face it, in context of all this, it's pretty obvious that christ was saying that the second coming would be "soon" and that time has showed him to be wrong.

I agree, overall, it seems this way. And if it were not so, why should it seem so? Why not speak plainly that the end-times were some 2000 years (at least) hence? <Christian-emulator-mode=ON>
Because, if you tell them that, they won't care. You have to scare the bejesus into them.<christian-emulator-mode=off>

Unbeliever · 08-29-2003, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Unbeliever, just skimming through your list of contradictions, you are way off base on quite a few, and some are completely irrelevant to the question.

Thanks for that info Magus55. If you will let me know to which ones you are refering, and can show me why they are "way off base", or "irrelevant to the question", I will gladly remove them from my list, as I don't want any sloppy contradictions to mar the list. I realize that some of them can be apologetically refuted, but most of the refutations that I've seen can in turn themselves be refuted. But I'm only an aspiring Biblical scholar (a wannabe), so I'm always willing to learn, and will admit when I'm wrong if it can be shown that I am wrong.

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08-28-2003, 06:12 PM	#12
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Unbeliever, just skimming through your list of contradictions, you are way off base on quite a few, and some are completely irrelevant to the question.

08-28-2003, 08:33 PM	#14
Roland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 748	Luke says that Thomas was present at Jesus' first post-resurrection appearance to the disciples. Luke 24:33-53 John says he was absent. John 20:24 ******************************************** Matthew says that Mary Magdalene encountered an angel in the tomb when she first visited on Easter morning. Matt. 28: 1-8 John says she found it empty. John 20: 1-2

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